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-   General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   and another 12V pump for Cathar (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8852)

BillA 02-03-2004 10:17 AM
"One after the res and one after the rads?"
yea
tell us if there is a difference
(its related to the NPSH)

Blackeagle 02-03-2004 01:42 PM
For future referance, just where do you guys see these Iwaki RD type pumps for sale?

And do they make one that's on par with a MD15 or 20? May as well find out how much more they cost than the AC versions. Everything that offers a improvement / advantage in this hobby ALWAYS costs more, even if designed for differant use.........

Thanks

satanicoo 02-03-2004 02:35 PM
What does swiftech thinks of an teoreticall "MCP-900" around 30 watts max?
And what is suppose to break on an MCP-600 after the 20.000 hours MTBF?

The ceramic shaft?

fhorst 02-03-2004 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
"One after the res and one after the rads?"
yea
tell us if there is a difference
(its related to the NPSH)
OK, I will.

2 short questions:
- NPSH stands for....
- most silent way of mouning for teh MCP600 is.. Inlet down?

BillA 02-03-2004 03:34 PM
no MCP900 exists
MTBF testing still ongoing, no answer
one would expect the ball bearings to fail first
??

NPSH = net positive suction head -> google
most quiet sitting on its tail (flat backside, inlet facing up)

fhorst 02-03-2004 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
about 2lbs of force required to stop the flow. I think you need to work on that thumb a bit. :D

Can easily stop the flow of my MD30-RZ with my thumb, and it's about 11PSI at dead head..
There you have it. Force :) I did not use additional force, just holding my thumb

All I can say that it's more pressue then I get here from the tap water. It's the best I got from a pump so far. (but then I need to say that I've only used aquarium pumps, with open impellor)

UberBlue 02-03-2004 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered

NPSH = net positive suction head -> google
most quiet sitting on its tail (flat backside, inlet facing up)
I'll take a stab at it.

Quote:
Total Head: The difference between the pressure head at the discharge and suction flange of the pump ( syn Total Dynamic Head. pump head, system head).
With that deffinition, it would seem to me that dumping the output of a pump directly to the input of another pump would alter the suction conditions, therefore altering the total head which would affect flow rate.

Intuitivley, I think, an amount of total head equal to the suction head of one pump is gonna come up missing.


Or:

With the pump on its back with the inlet facing up would definately alter suction conditions.

Does any of this really apply to a closed loop?
*puts on NOMEX suit*

BillA 02-03-2004 04:46 PM
UberBlue

not quite what I was alluding to, just that a high NPSH can result in cavitation
and this all/only applies to a closed loop

setting the pump on its tail is just to reduce the acoustical emanations

fhorst 02-03-2004 05:02 PM
Bill and Caltar (and all the others) , thanks for all the info :)
I'm going to turn my computer off tomorrow, strip it, and build it in my new case (chieftech big tower) with all the goodies i have in mind.

All that get's hot will be watercooled. I might even watercool the MCP's :)

Total project will include 4 or 5 pumps,two loops (one copper and one alu), White Water, D-tec zchip, GPU, Heatercore, Double Heatercore, BIX, bay res, moped rad (alu), koolance rad (alu), southbridge kooling (alu), memory cooling (alu), GPU memory cooling (alu), PSU cooling (alu), back side of motherboard/CPU cooling (alu), mosfets cooling (alu), HDD (3) cooling (alu) and some UV leds to make things nice.

I don't think I left anything out that get's hot. (if so please tell)

It's a bit of a project, took me 3 months of planning, but once finished, I'll post a link with pic's

It supposed to be low power usage and silent also :D

pauldenton 02-04-2004 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Think about the target market. The US market is flooded full of AC pumps in the $30-70 price range.

The MCP600 is already $85. From the average buyer's perspective, about the only thing it has going for it is that it's 12VDC. From a quality perspective (initial teething problems with the thrust bearing notwithstanding) it's worth every dollar in comparison to the sub-$60 AC pumps, but that's not what people see. They just want the cheapest thing that pushes a bit of water in a semi-decent fashion.

The Laing costs $95 for 1-249 units, and $78 for 250+ direct from Laing, USA. There's an additional price-break somewhere further along but I never asked about it. It's probably far enough away to make it not worthwhile for Swiftech to buy that many up-front.

Add in shipping, having to employ people to fit 12V molex connectors, at least a 20% markup to cover Swiftech's inventory, labour, warranty and support costs, and add another 20% for the end-market reseller, and the D4 would come out to around $130US MSRP under a Swiftech badge. I'm just plucking percentage figures out of the air here.

Now how many people will buy a $130 12VDC pump when they think that a $30-45 AC pump is typically good enough for their needs?

Mind you, you could always buy the D4 for $95 each direct yourself, but shipping is via Fedex only, so expect to pay around $115 if you bought one from Laing and then you still have to fit your own molex connector.

Even if Swiftech cut prices further sold them for $120US to basically knock out the people who would otherwise buy direct from Laing, how many people will then buy a $120US pump? For what gain? 0.5-1.5C? Sure, some people will, but maybe not many hundreds.

Over in Australia and the UK/Europe, a $120-130US 12VDC pump is a relative bargain where decent AC pumps are priced from an equivalent $80-130US. Not in the USA though where the mass-market is.

Mind you, the above applies for any company, not specifically Swiftech.
for anyone who doesn't know, word on OCAU is that Dangerden are going to be distributing the D4....

satanicoo 02-04-2004 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Well payment just cleared and the pumps are on their way. It's worked out to $147.40 each pump for 6 pumps, including shipping.

Still have to see if Australia customs slap a 10% GST on top that though, which will take the total to $160 each if they do.
Wait - It was that costy?
Taxes?

pauldenton 02-04-2004 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by satanicoo
Wait - It was that costy?
Taxes?
GST is the Australian Goods and Services Tax iirc - like European VAT :(

i imagine the rest is shipping to Australia from the US.....

Cathar 02-04-2004 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
GST is the Australian Goods and Services Tax iirc - like European VAT :(

i imagine the rest is shipping to Australia from the US.....
GST is also like the Californian Sales Tax (or Washington, or whatever). Unlike the USA, the Federal government is in control of the taxation - the individual states don't get to set taxation policy - but they can set levies on things like petroleum, land and housing sales, etc.

Per pump it works out to about $111US delivered, which is about the same as what someone in the USA would pay if they ordered a single pump from them.

pauldenton 02-05-2004 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
for anyone who doesn't know, word on OCAU is that Dangerden are going to be distributing the D4....
and they're talking about a selling price of "under $80"! :eek:

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 03:43 PM
What pump have you ordered Cathar?

Link?

Thanks

Cathar 02-05-2004 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
What pump have you ordered Cathar?

Link?

Thanks
I ordered the Laing D4, which is the same pump that Danger Den are selling. I got mine with the larger fittings though as this does help pump performance somewhat.

rocketmanx 02-05-2004 04:27 PM
Quote:
which is the same pump that Danger Den are selling
Very cool :cool:
Can't wait till mid February.
Might put a serious dent in Swifty's pump sales ;)

Thanks for the research Cathar, very nice pump find :)

BillA 02-05-2004 04:36 PM
[quote=rocketmanx]. . . . .
Might put a serious dent in Swifty's pump sales ;)
. . . . . QUOTE]
"might" is the operative phrase here, as I know more than others (also about this pump)
lol
never assume . . . . .

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 05:29 PM
What are the performance specs of this D4 pump?

Bill,

Is there any stronger pump than the 600 at Swiftech?

Cathar 02-05-2004 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
"might" is the operative phrase here, as I know more than others (also about this pump)
lol
never assume . . . . .
Now he worries me. :(

Will have to see how the 3/4" fitting pump I have works out. Hopefully here on Monday.

Cathar 02-05-2004 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
What are the performance specs of this D4 pump?
10kPa = 1.02mH2O = 1.45PSI

http://www.theforumisdown.com/upload...r_curve_lg.jpg

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 06:08 PM
Thanks Cathar!

But that is no where near the force of your MD-30z, closer to a MD-15 but short of that by a bit.

I thought you'd found a pump that would rival your MD-30, a misconseption on my part.

Yet it's still a interesting pump that gets it's power from 12v.

Wish Bill would just spill the beans on what's up with this pump that he knows of.........

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 06:09 PM
Does anyone know of a site or company that sells the Iwaki RD line of pumps? While Iwaki pumps are expensive, I'd be interested in seeing what they offer.

BillA 02-05-2004 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
. . . . .
Bill,
Is there any stronger pump than the 600 at Swiftech?
no, notwithstanding the MCP1200 fol de rol

Laing D4 P-Q curve

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
no, notwithstanding the MCP1200 fol de rol

Laing D4 P-Q curve

I'll have to admit I wasn't to surprised to see that response. LOL

Ghost pumps aside, that performance curve isn't as strong as I'd expected considering Cathar's goals. But I read a thread at Extremeoverclocking where Cathar also mentions this D4 and the fact he's going to try 3 in series to get where he wants to go. No question the X 3 D4 pumps will get him the head rate, and at a lot lower total wattage than a MD-30.

I wonder if I can guess what it is you were referancing knowing about this pump Bill? I'm wondering if the problem/issue will be in the three pumps not quite matching in performance, enough to create a stressor between the 3 pumps, which could lead to a much faster failure rate.

My best shot at the answer.


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