I'm another gone to water cooling for quiet person. My priorities in designing a machine are quietness and bang for the buck. I overclock my machines, but I'm willing to give up that last 10% of performance to have a nearly silent machine. In my circle I have gotten a lot of requests to build somebody a quiet machine, or to recommend components to do that. In the last 5 years I don't think anybody has asked me to make them the fastest machine possible, it's always a fast and quiet machine. Don't underestimate the number of people interested in having a quiet machine.

Ahh, but I think performance is important even for a low noise system. If all I was after was low noise, I could get an XP-120 and a Panaflo 120 L1A @ 5V and be done with it for less money than the cheapest watercooled rig.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

Bug the mfgrs as to what happened with the kit testing. Pug never sent anything to me so I never really followed up on it.

I think a low noise category would simply include anything where noise affects a design decision.

now I regret bringing this up, at least with the appellation "low end"

not worth fighting that phrase over and over

someone else can carry this topic if interested

aaronspink
yes, as one 'moves' in different directions the thermal solution is different
- just what these topics would have illustrated

is this procooling ?
or just watercooling ?
you guys limit yourselves

My 2 cents.
No need for seperate forum. No need for "low end" here. Everyone makes compromises. Procooling members value performance over everything else (well, most of us, right?). There are plenty of other sites that dedicate to "silence", "low end", looks, etc...

Although for entertainment purposes it'd be fun to see "blingcooling" or "underclockcooling" sections...:)

I think we're already where we need to be
 

I'd suggest that this forum has already "moved" to the point that low noise, low cost, and low space issues are already mainstream.
In one of my early posts, I mentioned that, for a low noise fan, a BI Pro II made better sense than a (same frontal area but thicker) BI Xtreme II - and basically got handed my head for suggesting something that ran contrary to the then-current high-performance-only thinking.
Things are pretty different now. If I mention that I'm interested in low noise, even at the expense of o/c performance, folks here understand where I'm coming from.
So... a year ago I'd have been hot for a separate forum - now I think it's either unnecessary or maybe even counter-productive (in the sense that some members might read/post in one forum and we'd lose cross-polenization of information and ideas).
That said, if there was a "low performance" (or whatever non-pejorative term we come up with) forum, I'd certainly read, and contribute if I thought I had anything of merit to say.

I see, not much here but a few other places, a good amount of people post about silent solutions, zalmans etc, and they get shot down because most people on those forums have low temps in mind and see something like the zalman as a rip off(as do I).
Im definitely not defending the zalman buyers and obsessers, they just have one of the variables that someone posted about before a little higher than most of us do.
Yeah I want lowest possible temps but noise, performance, practicality, and price all out weigh one another at some point in time.

To those who dont care about practicality that guy with those two giant radiators on a 12" diameter blower over at overclockers.com forums has extreme/highend/"pro" cooling. But to those who want something that can fit in their case that guy's solution is not even on the map.

To those who dont care about noise a 600cfm blower over pretty much anything is highend. But to zalman freaks thats like nails on a chalk board.

etc etc

Atleast in my mind high end doesnt mean absolute lowest temps all the time.

I could buy a HC and put some loud blower on it and get awesome temps. But Id rather get multiple HCs or some very large radiator and have really slow fans on it and get the same temps as one HC and a single blower. True Im not getting the the lowest temps possible as I could get more powerful fans or even a blower or two but that doesnt make my system any less "high end" than its louder counterpart.

Id say around half of the people at a lot of water cooling/highly technical forums have priorities like so:
low temps
practicality
price
noise

Just because someone holds those in a different order doesnt mean we should shit on the little guy.

I guess my def. of "procooling" is working hard and smart on something, putting a large amount of technical knowledge accumulated from communities, like this one, and getting the best solution possible.
No matter how I hold those priorities, well except price as I dont have $ to burn, my solutions will always need a lot of consulting so I always consider them high end.

just my 2c

Making something small or compact doesn´t mean you're lunatic.

Take the example of the Austin Mini (for those who know it). It managed to unite all the commonly characteristics of a automobile and provided a solution that turned out to be a sales record, solding more units than some luxury or sports cars at the time.
Later it added more powerful motors (Cooper) but the concept remained the same.

Is something along this lines feasible in WC? Is this the right way?

Having a section for this kind of concepts, can have some uselfullness, ie, to "watch" the trend of the market, and how users interpret the various choices and separate them in order to have a buying decision.

The thing is: do these "low budget" systems sell more = have a better acceptance, than the "high budget" ones?
If they're in someways inefficient, what do they offer to the user that it's rival doesn´t?

What could be done to improve such systems maintaining the same project constraints?

EDIT: I didn´t want to use the words "low end", so I replaced for "low budget".
It still isn´t the appropriate, but there it is.

Bill, I like your idea. It seems like you're suggesting a shift in thinking in
the Procooling community. While many of the members are concerned with maximum
performance, there are also those who are more interested in minimal cost, low
noise, and doing it themself.

Maybe they need a section, too. A place where the users can discuss their
setups with an emphasis on acceptable but not top-of-the-line performance.


I agree. 'Low End' doesn't sound quite right, though. How about calling it Mid Range Cooling?

If it becomes popular, I'm going to sell 1/4" tubing and get rich! :D

procooling, IMnotHO, should encompass all types of thermal solutions

max performance is but one pole, why not understand how they interact ?
-> done w/o flaming, we could have a vastly greater audience - and participation

instead of system design criteria, which is merely how I solve problems, there could be cooling methodologies
we have this now with air, TECs, water - but it does not function too well

From the standpoint of a manufacturer of any goods, the most total profit potential might not be from the high end product. This would imply an interest in low or mid range products, which may mean some very interesting discussions from the professional cooling community.


Yes, not an easy request, but I have faith in the members to exercise restraint. As long as any performance claims were subject to careful scrutiny.

Yes this is procooling.

Cooling we can agree on, but what is "pro".

Pro - professional
pro is an attitude and a method, not a wad of cash or the lattest gear.
Pro to me is using knowledge to the max. So whether your pushing the boundaries of a homemade dremel block or a G5, your still pro.



Who is more of the pro.

The kid who buys a ferrari?
or the dude that rebuilds his old junker, and makes it run again, reliably?

Argh, not more car analogies. They just don't work.

But why bother with a Silent or Low Noise section at all? All you need to do to make a low noise system is buy quieter fans and a thinner rad. Or go with a bong setup. That's about all there is to it.

I'm just going to hop in and say that more knowledge, more testing, and more experiences only help us as a community.

It'd be nice to have a silent/quiet area just to help group the various other posts and make it easier to sift through.

Slightly off-topic, it would be nice to start having research goals. There are lots of questions and loads of opinions but very little real data is presented (with some exceptions.)

The reason the zalman solution got shut down, was because of the attitude of the original poster mainly. He was a bit of a worry, to be honest. Stubborn, opinionated, unable to see the other side, etc etc

Procooling means, imo, talk straight, find the best solution, research (outside or inside the standard cooling square) and share results. Its not a standard 'what should i buy' or 'how come this isnt working' or 'has anyone tried xxx product' forum. Questions dont get repeated that often, due to the low traffic.

I fail to see why a seperate section is needed for it. If keeping something at stock speed cool is the aim, aircooling does that pretty well, and cheaper (as said).

As for balancing the 4 major criteria (price, performance, noise level, space requirements), that can be done in the sections we have here.

What stops you getting the best performance?
The other criteria, of course. That, and a lack of research, or whatever.

compromise for other components shouldnt be called 'low end cooling'; its compromised cooling (be it silent/quiet cooling, budget cooling, or space restricted cooling). Doesnt make it low end.

This might actually be good - particularly if some of us who are also members at
the silent PC review forums mention it over there. There's a lot of information about silent cooling (as well as silent everything else) over there, but it's not the same climate as procooling - so statements that (at least to me) seem incorrect go unchallenged... which makes the rest of the otherwise interesting information somewhat suspect

The dangers of a larger audience. Are we sure that's what we want here?

and risk dropping our net-clue?

This forum is like beer for the brain - it just kills of the weak brain cells/forum members and the stronger ones just continue.

problem is we've killed/driven off some very good ones too

Yea if I could target specific "bad" brain cells with beer then I would be moving things around in my office with only my mind :)

Really the goal should be to work towards a world where the Procoolers were truly "pros of cooling optimization". That's the missing link: tying price, performance, noise, and size together to make the best tradeoffs for a given situation.

davidzo (sp?) made a really valid point the other day that in the US people are willing to spend $$$ on an Iwaki pump to increase flow rates but that they rely on $18 heatercores. In the EU the tendency is for expensive radiators and really small tubing/weak pumps. Neither one of these approaches is necessarily "better" but awareness of what exactly one is sacrificing in either extreme really isn't clear to the average wcer I think. It should be clear that you MUST make different component decisions depending upon your goals or you will waste money, space, quiet, or cooling. Is this site really providing people with the data and explanations to make informed choices though? Nah.

for WCing - the rad data is always the problem, not too much in the public domain

but it would be informative to work through the progression hsf -> heat pipe hsf -> WCing in different limiting scenarios
to be complete TECs and phase change would need to be included as well

awfully large amount of data needed
I have a bunch but nowhere near enough to approximate application 'limits' under different design assumptions

Once again, we should really spell out what data we are missing and see exactly how well we can come together and make some progress.

Where was this thread going again?

talcum:
I think it just sorta meanders meaninglessly until someone gets a "Euros vs. US" or "Procooling vs. xxxxx.com" flame war started.

Right with you on those groupings. IMHO I wouldn't start a low cost subforum here. There are plently of other forums out there for that. I like the high caliber of this forum. I spent six months on pcper’s watercooling forum and once I learned everything I could over there only then did I become a comfortable noob here. I usually only go to pcper’s watercooling forums now to help out really newbies. Hey, I don’t mind educating uber noobs, I was in their shoes less than a year ago, I would just like to keep “non-college-prep” out of the “honors” classes. ;)

One thing we got to bear in mind when we talk about extreme is what’s extreme? Just pure power?. I love my Iwaki MD-20Z but that's just not an option for a dude who's going extreme--extremely small, like watermodding a SFF. Some guys are big-block muscle car fans. I’m cool with that. But what’s against having have half the horsepower in a much smaller car. Last time I checked a good little Prosche can kick some serious Dodge Viper tail. (Maybe not the best comparison, but you know what I’m getting at).



IMHO low noise is when your sitting next to your computer and the only way you can tell if it's on is by the power light. :dome:

I didn't always think this way, but once you start quieting oooh it gets addicting!


Personally I would like to have it all, with the exception of size, and I'm not that tight money wise as I do most if not all of my stuff myself (as I'm sure most guys here do). To have both power and uber quietness you jsut got to sacrifice on size though. I'll be using at least three heatercores (a pair in an external box) and a 1' x 3' "reserator" (actually an uninsulated hot water heater copper cylinder) as well as lots of foam and undervolting/PWM to achieve what I want.


Oh, and if you’re the type of guy who puts Vantec anything-but-“Stealth” fans in the same category as delta screamers, SPCR is an excellent site for you to check out. (www.silentpcreview.com). Warning though. Their specialty is fans…their watercooling forum isn’t exactly ProCooling level, or even close to pcper.

Even if you're not into quiet computing, which is fine since you should be able to get along in life with a hearing problem just fine ( :p j/k of course), I suggest this 67CFM @ 12V to you. Why? Well it behaves beautifully on PWM and undervolts well on DC as well. Then it's up to you how you want to run your rig. :)
Link: http://www.mnpctech.com/Globe.html


DrCR


____________
Have your cake...and eat it too.

I disagree with his point. People use heatercores mostly because of performance, not price.

Most people here don't have a problem spending more on a radiator, its just that theres really no compelling option aside from a heatercore. I think europeans don't use cores because they don't have the ubiquitous 'bigmama' core available locally in virtually any populated area. And even then I've seen lots of European systems with heatercores, just not the same type, so its harder for people to pick out a suitable part.

Actually, if you're getting one of these, go for the Mercury Montego core, not the Chevette - approx same price but inlet/outlet pipes are suitable for 1/2 ID tubing without soldering J.B.welding anything - just cut down to stubs.
Coupled with the coolingworks shroud, these are nearly as easy to install as a BI Xtreme (with two of these shrouds they are as easy as a BI - just a matter of placing it on a case hole for a 120mm fan).
All that said, if BI made a slightly larger frontal area rad - same thickness as the "pro" series - for a semi-reasonable price a lot of folks would probably be using that. Sometimes there just isn't room for the 2x120mm fan setup. I do think that a minimum frontal area is in the 220-230 sq cm range, though.

it becomes a length vs. width exercise if keeping the rad within the case
vertical or horizontal ?
front or back ?
into which bloody case ?

Bob
how did you come to that area ?

EDIT
I should add that making a rad longer is simple and requires only a longer sideplate
Willie at HW Labs will make such if a reasonable order is placed (I'm sure)
but making the rad wider involves new tooling for the headers also
is the market there for such ?

remember, this is the outer fringe of WCing eh ?