Bill, whats the death/failure rates of your pumps? Havent quite a few of the origional 'swiftech' branded pumps died? and a few mcp600s died right away, I dont see you going out and bashing everyones heads off because of it, but as soon as a competitor shows up your wailing on them.
I inquired about my dead pump and immediately got an e-mail back and they are replacing it with virtually no questions asked. Just like you would do right?
Pm me with some numbers on death rates, I have a close number of c-systems pump deaths.

Jon

Jon, the difference is what is claimed by the manufacturer/reseller vs what is provided.

Swiftech never said that their pumps had 50000hr MTBF's, and in fact if you pushed Bill on the MTBF of the MCP600 when it was released, he wasn't able to provide one because I don't believe that the OEM manufacturer had a value to give either. Maybe they did, I don't know, but it was never advertised as having a ~7yr MTBF.

What the issue here is when someone comes onto the market with a cheap and poorly made pump, and starts spouting figures for reliability that are the reserve of well designed higher priced pumps.

That the pumps fail is not the issue. The issue is that certain individuals have put their reputation on the line in backing a product that does not even remotely match what was being advertised as its reliability.

Things fail. Fact of life. Quite a different matter to effectively dupe people into buying a faulty product under the pretence that it is better than what it is, and then start back-pedalling and finally dumping the company to divorce oneself from their created liability when the brown stuff hits the fan.

hey geek, think it out before posting
here is the issue being discussed:
a new pump was released with an exuberant review by Lee and much attention was paid
some slightly pointed questions were asked and largely ignored
orders were placed, pumps shipped - and right off the bat the problems started
mechanical, anodizing, rusty screws, leaking seals, corroded pump internals, etc
and it seems the MkIIs are starting to do the same

now the guy who started this debacle unloaded the company, but still 'looks over its shoulder', but has yet to enlighten the hardware geeks here as to how much shit could come from a new product, before one questions the competence of those involved

now they have a new product, and it may well be good - I've asked their expert for pumps before and received nothing, I doubt I'll test this one either
-> but this is the point, new products should be validated before being dumped on a gullible public

such is not the history of C-Systems
and the past is always the best predictor of the future

Too the best of my knowledge, C-Systems still has a very low return rate.
However I understand from Dave, there are a few people that can not make there 750 work at all, for more then a few weeks.

I believe they maybe using a very restrictive system, or thermol overloading somehow.

I also believe given the low percentage of returns (around 1%) that this can be explained by simple assembly issues. They have also found that the pumps can be damaged in transit, having seem several that where hit so hard, as too have the screws holding the motor on stripped out, one even had the magnetic cap bent (was not disassembled). They have since changed packaging, with additional protection.

The only issue I see, is long term use under very restrictive use or in series, in which case I would suggest a MAG model or another pump designed for high back pressures. This is why AVT is sponsering a low cost upgrade program with C-Systems. We have to do this with C-Systems as our insurance carrier will not let us do so directly. In a free flowing systems, the 750 runs for years, and AVT still produces them for our applications and OEM orders.

C-Systems only produces the MAG model, and the company was purchased just to secure a supply of these units for there own internal use.

I was in charge of C-Systems when you requested pumps Bill, and personally found your actions as a professional engineer unexceptable, and did not want my company or myself associated with your behavior. It was a personal call, and as I have no partners or public stock holders, I have the option of making said calls.

Enough said, going back into my "hole" :D

thats a heads up response Dave, I doubt you will be faulted for it
a recurring problem with internet 'failure analysis' is that the failures take on disproportionate weight
- but the NPSH issue was very well known at that time due to the PanWorld problems,
and why I was insistent about testing some pumps BEFORE expressing commercial interest
1% ? you know better than anyone else

no argument with your choices, might have been nice to let me know - other than on a forum months later
but apparently I was given what you think my behavior deserved, ok

Well, I'm not an expert. But it seems to me that C-Systems has realised that the original CSP had things that could be improved (I'm not going to pronounce myself about the quality of the original 750, because I don't have the numbers). They have changed a lot and as far as I can tell everything that has reported problems on the old CSP, has been replaced by other solutions in the new one.
Time will tell if this pump stands the test, but I think there is no need to be negative about it before it even hits the shelves. After all, they ARE trying to make a pump that fits our needs. And as far as I'm concearned, that should be a good thing.
And even Bill found out the hard way that promises on paper aren't allways what they seem ... that goes for every product. The only way to know is putting them in real life situations and see what happens. But I think we ought to be optimistic here ... If the MAG turns out not to be the perfect watercooling pump yet, it sure is a step in the right direction.
C-Systems itself seems to be pretty confident about the pump, offering a 30 month warranty. This could be marketing just to make us believe it is a good pump, but I doubt that any company would give such a warranty on a product they know is prone to failure.

I purchased 2 CSP750 MKIIs, one of which had one of the motor mount screws stripped out on arrival. Upon inspection there was very little interference between the hole and the screw threads. Either the screws were not to spec or the holes were drilled too large. I'm not surprised that the motor screws were stripping out with the marginal amount of thread engaging into the metal.

I called c-systems and they promptly sent me a new center section with motor and impeller mounted to the aluminum bulkhead. I rebuilt the motor with the supplied part and installed it a system. It ran for about 2 months before the shaft seal leaked and corroded the motor till it died. I then replaced it with the other CSP-750MII I had, but this one produced a great deal of noise when running. Either the impeller or rotor was hitting something. Other than to make sure it was not hitting the fittings I didn't bother disassembling it. I ran it for about a week and then replaced it with a DDC in frustration.

I would consider that 3 failures out of 3 for the CSP-750 MKII. At least that's my sampling. I have not returned any of these pumps as I'm not interested in constantly replacing failing pumps and I'm fairly certain a cash refund will not be forthcoming.

I dunno ?
it seemed like everything was explained away in this post,
guess I missed something

one of the luxuries of NOT being a pump mfgr is that I do not have to make excuses about pumps, I replace them and send them back to the mfgr

We're not at odds here, just pointing out that most geometry changes don't change unsprung weight (and, yes, even "bike guys" realize that this is a misnomer and we're really talking about "unsprung mass" and the issue is inertia). As far as this mass being damped, well, yes, it should be but it isn't always - unless you count the internal friction of the suspension material (spring, gas, rubber, whatever), so I'm not sure I'd want to call it "undamped mass".

Oh - a compressible fluid. Makes sense given what you're doing. You realize that I would regard this as a kind of spring?

Back to your regularly scheduled pump discussion....

Now, this 1%, is that all your pumps total or just the PC cooling ones? ("In a free flowing systems, the 750 runs for years, and AVT still produces them for our applications and OEM orders." just made me wonder.)

AA, skip it
he is talking about returns, not failures
think coupon redemption rate and the slight is apparent

Aye, it's not necessarily the case that the number of failures tally's to C-Systems' returns as not everyone will have returned their failed pump, then there's however many have been returned to resellers that are still awaiting return to C-Systems, and then there's the figure of how many have failed that just made their way straight to the local dustbin...

Can't tally a products failure rate by the number of returns you have on it... you can just get an idea of how likely they are to fail and why based on the returns received.

Also if it's a cheaper pump than many people might see it as almost "disposable" and just bin it when it dies.

What will this mean exactly for disgruntled Mk2 owners like myself? :shrug:

So far I'm getting this impression from everyone: "Yeah C-Systems has a good idea but I doubtful about their ability to deliver." A small DC pump with a high head rating seems to be what the PC water cooling community needs. The DDC has performed thus far with aplomb... its just that $75 for a pump? That stings. Hell for $30 more I could have purchased a good Iwaki. I personally would like to see C-Systems produce a reliable pump that the community can except, while, hopefully, keeping their price point the same....

I think we all want that, but can we expect the price to remain the same?

For me a good 'Mag Drive' upgrade offer is going to be key.

perhaps more along the lines of <$50 seems like a good target.

re this thread's other topic
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/21/au...s/21CARS.html?
not electronic suspension, but moving along

Hello all !
Sorry I do not have much time available to spend in here as I am working at C-Systems and AVT Canada these days.

Dan asked that I jump in an answer some of the questions he could not.

First a correction, the pump housing is not fully aluminum. We use the plastic pump volute insert from the OEM models. There is a small area in front of the impeller exposed and of course the ports as well.

We should have the new models up for sale next week and suggested retail is $49.99. Please do not send me nasty emails or make voodoo dolls of me if this doesn't happen till the week after next. We are very busy meeting other commitments.

To answer questions of performance, management has decided to release a mid range impeller, about 120-140 gph, max head of 3-4 psi at 6-8 watts. They will be offering different configurations in the future and I am busy matching cooling blocks.

The AVT sponsered upgrade program is also expected to start soon and will be under $20.

I will jump in again when I have more news and will update our WEB site when I can. I hope to have some new pictures of additional products posted soon.

Dave
C-Systems Support

nice find.
a college friend did a small research project on this stuff a few years back and concluded that real-time tuneable shocks would be a most promising app - why I mentioned it.
my remark was (half) made in jest though as I can't imagine what type of pump could handle iron filings...!?

This sounds very decent.

I'm glad to see that there is at least some positive response. I'd like to see them pull it off this time. Perhaps Dave will be brave enough to send pHaestus a sample pump for evaluation?

Thanks for the email.

We will be glad to send out a sample, just have editior email support.

Sorry the retail site is still not open, we are still having supply issues.
Everytime time we try and get enough parts set aside for retail use, our OEM orders increase.

I believe we should be able to provide retail pumps with next weeks shipment of magnetic material.

Also please understand the "leaked" review post on another site was a special pump running at 10 watts for an OEM customer, it was just in the retail case to speed there testing. This is why we asked it to be removed. We did not want to give people the wrong impression.

Dave
C-Systems Support

I was considering giving The CSP Mag pump a try and sent D-Tek an E-mail on 2-25-05 asking if they knew when the pumps would be available or at least could I be put on a list for one when they become available. As of 3-8-05 I have not even received a simple courtesy E-mail from them stating they did not know or anything at all. Besides being a sloppy way to run your business, it is just plain rude. If this is the way they run their business, I would not order anything from them period. As Danger den responded to my E-mails in 1 day, I ordered a DDC-12V pump from them.

Sorry about that Hans, just email us next time you have a question.

According to sales, overclock.com in the UK is to receive first retail MAG shippment.

I will try and find out who is first in North Amercia

Dave

Would that be over-clock.co.uk ?

^ Yes it is

I e-mailed them when the csp-750's first came on pre-order and never got an e-mail back. Seems like a trend.

Thank You! If it makes any difference, I would be interested in one (or two) with the 9/16-18 thread so I can use the DD 1/2" high flow barbs.

I'll be interested to see the reviews on this new pump when it comes out. As regards the new port configuration, it is a shame the axial intake is not available as an option, maybe with a blanking plug.