Then, I say "sorry" to you as well Lothar.... and I personally found your product "innovative"

Be nice to Cathar and I, as engineers we believe innovation is everything ;)

Innovation is not THE key to success. The key to success is finding a market need, whether price or feature based, and filling that need. This I believe also need to be tempered with a certain degree of integrity. If you're going to undercut someone on price, at least have the forthrightness to stand on your own two feet and market your product as a distinct product, rather than attempt success purely by riding on the coat-tails of an established brand-name.

That, to me, is THE absolute lowest form of business practise imaginable. Not only is the product copied without any innovation whatsoever, but to add insult to injury, the copy attempts to derive success by selling itself as a direct copy of the original and using the original's marketing material to piggy-back itself as a valid product.

i.e. No R&D outlay. No need to establish a name-brand. No need for marketing. No need for testing. Just totally, wholly, and completely, ride the coat-tails of other's hard work.

Ethical score: 0

To answer Sin22 above, despite the very obvious similarities of various other waterblock designs to one of my earlier designs, at least those using the inherent design added something or did something different, and didn't try to use the success of one of my designs in their marketing material. I may not have liked the fact that important elements of the designs were copied, but in comparison they all stand head and shoulders over the sort of practise being defended above.

Working for a company with annual revenues in excess of $10B, I am under no illusions about what it takes to succeed in the world, but the one common theme which gets hammered into all of my companies employees can be summed up in one word "ethics". If you're financially rich but ethically poor, what are you?

Well Lothar5150, of all the numerous designs you can have applied to making your rads, why did you choose the look and feel of the Black Ice Xtreme? Uninspiring and unimaginative certainly rings in only too easily.

And just because we've been quiet while being derided doesn't mean we're not doing anything.

Unfortunately you can't patent ethics.

My statement pertains to the topic of radiators. I'm not talking about who invented the light bulb, otherwise, of course it's 100% clear.

The examples you've stated could not suggest one on radiators for the first cut.

Lothar5150

I may just agree. But i remain positive on this, afterall, many good things have come out of this place before. :)

I'm sure you're aware that BIs are made in the Philipines and that it's not expensive to make them there. What Thermochill's facing is the usual old problem. Though I admire Thermochill's persistence in keeping production in UK, the economic forces are working the other way. But then again, making products in China presents another set of problems.

Bobkoure

Yes, I thought everyone here knew.

Dave

Thanks. I totally understand that from where you stand is what you see. Don’t get me wrong, my company is centered on innovation. As you can see Cathar does not take it easy on me…

Cathar

The reality is that radiators are commodity items, and the patent ran out on that item over 80 years ago.

“Working for a company with annual revenues in excess of $10B, I am under no illusions about what it takes to succeed in the world, but the one common theme which gets hammered into all of my companies employees can be summed up in one word "ethics". If you're financially rich but ethically poor, what are you?”

Again Cathar, don’t preach your very extreme view ethics to me. Your first problem is that “ethics” means different things to various cultures, sub-cultures, societies and industries. So stop trying to swing the term around like a big stick or a tag line for anything that Cathar doesn’t like.

As far as my personal ethics go, I am a Marine. Relative to western culture Marines have some of the highs personal ethics one can have. This is why BillA’s name is on the patent application for the HDPE Bay Res.

TNT2bluz

I think you had a good run as the sole manufacturer of PC radiators. However, you made the economic conditions ripe for competition.

BTW focus too hard on me and you will miss the guy who is going to hit you hard ;)

My views on ethics can only be considered to be "very extreme" by those on the very lowest end of the scale. People are judged by how they act and conduct themselves, not through whatever organisation (marines or otherwise) that they choose to use as a foil.

You just don't like me 'cos I'm not afraid to call it as how I see it. You just don't like it 'cos the truth hurts. Go on, hide behind your flimsy "I was a marine!" mantra. Everyone else they'll just make up their minds based upon what they see you as being, not based upon what you say you are.

China is ripping off anything and everything they possibly can. Thing is not posting the info on forums will not get you anywhere really. Once you release the product they will copy it anyway. Might take a little longer though.

Another problem with China seems to be spam and hacking. 99% of the port scans recorded on my firewall and 75% of all spam I recieve is from there... China is not exactly high on the ethical bandwagon on any level.

Our company is presently in a legal wrangle over a Chinese company selling duplicate hardware. The hardware schematics and software sources were all illegally obtained through various deliberate and illegal practises. They were turning a $3bil/yr business based upon selling items that were direct hardware and software copies of our products, right down to the exact same bugs and bug reports, which is how it was all uncovered in the end.

By our friend Lothar5150's ethical standards, that's all perfectly acceptable because the market was ripe for picking due to our company's efforts.

That sounds familiar. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe another US company actually enterprise on it.

lol, I totally agree with you on that. :p

Focus on you? :D By the looks of it, you've been focused on us.

Just keep your eye on the road and not on our rearend. ;)

By your definition of ethics, in far less eloquent words, as long as there's money to be made -anything goes. Don't try to make it anymore altruistic than it really is.

But the truth is, if one is intent on screwing people, no agreement can stop you. All the law can do, if ever its applicable, is apply punitive measures.

Your comment and allusions in your postings here in the forums about us have not gone unnoticed. There is nothing honorable about this behavior.

The social backlash you're subjected to right now is a mere repercussion.

If we're talking about innovation, people needn't wait too long from now.

You’re correct everyone is judged by their personal actions. BTW I am still a Marine Captain not "was" and I have had to deal with very real ethical issues of life and death (I’m not being glib). Which keep this little argument completely in perspective for me.

Let's be honest here, was a patent, trademark or copyright violated? I think not. Again patents on radiators ran out decades ago.

Actually Cathar I really have no reason to dislike you, having seen the worst in human nature your comments are far from the worst thing that that has come along.

I have spent most of my life leading people which generally make me a good judge of what make people tick. Obviously your a guy frustrated with having sit in a cubby and work for managers you consider intellectually inferior. Some how I represent one of those managers to you and I'm now your release for that frustration. I personally think is sad that you are so poorly lead…you impress me as a talented engineer.

Well, I am not a manufacturer.
Might make a block soon, might even sell a few.
But I am in the brigade of "hobby" coz it won't ever pay any of my bills.

I've got some ideas and some plans. All will fail miserably to compete with 2nd hand heater cores for value for money, but might appeal for various reasons.

Do we create a sub forum or not?

I tend to think the block design/construction forum should be renamed to "component" design/construction, and then it can discuss blocks, rads, reservoirs etc.

On to ethics and all that, I can see a "new world order" where innovation and invention is done by hobbyists and then companies reduce the cost for all. I can live with this.

Actually I just lapped you and others...you just have realized it yet :dome:

If we were to remove the whole idea of legality of patents and designs and stuff...

How can you come to claim that your "design" is something borne out of your own creativity?

There are numerous designs you could have implemented in creating the look and feel of the Coolingworks rad while making it 'distinctively' yours?

There is much respect I defer to the people in Thermochill and even the gentlemen from Bluestream even with their numerous assertions against our products.

However, they do put something new on the table and that belies the spirit of enthusiast communities.

Business is business, but despite the fact that there are no patents on ethics, not everyone chooses to partake of it.

Then again, what goes around comes around. ;)

Grade-school marketing drivel, and amateur psychology doesn't work on me sorry. You have no idea what makes me tick.

I will grant it to you, your level of mastery of car-salesman psychology is indeed enough to fool many, and you're sadly right, it does get you fairly far in the world. Your attitude of "so long as it makes money and hang the morals" as you have portrayed is a disgrace to everything which you believe your uniform stands for.

I walk a different path to you mate. Rather than using some arbitrary badge or uniform as a crutch to represent everything which you wish you really stood for, I don't need such a shield to hide behind to deflect attention from my true self. Don't even pretend to think you can make me see it your way.

Some salesmen spin so much bullshit that they actually start believing in it to the point that they think everyone else is deluded or has a problem if they don't believe in the same bullshit too. You are one such person.

They usually jolt like that when you hit a nerve.

Agreed, you have to expect the other guy to land a few punches...its all par for the course ;)

All due honor to the corps, of course. ;)

Nah. That's just another example of amateur psychology babble. Such statement types are used try to deflect attention away from the fact when someone is right through a lame attempt to lump them as being the ones with the problem.

You're certainly full of it.

Thanks, some of my best Marines were from PI :cool:

Not at all but how long would you like to belabor this. Look I believe that you really think your right. Now carry on.

No, now you're just trolling for the sake of it.

I'm done.

lol, now back to the topic of the sub-forum, where were we..............

Someone, please, chop this into two so I don't have to read it.
Between these two and BillA vs Dave in the other thread, well, sigh....

Its got nothing to do with a bloody radiator design subforum, even though its a topic worth "discussion"....

Wow... knew I should've signed on last night and checked this thread... */me starts brushing the empty shell cases into a tidy pile in the corner*

Well I'll explain some of the reasoning for that... back in the early days when we (as Over-Clock UK) first started with watercooling, radiators were the single component we ALWAYS ran out of. The only choice those days was BlackIce and their distributor network wasn't quite as pleasant as it is these days. We were having to buy rads in from the US & Germany, and finding our rads frequently being held hostage by either the supplier or customs. We'd go from sales-thru-the-roof to nothing solely because we'd been fed a load of crap regarding our radiator orders and would often be sat without any for months on end. This started to have the knock on effect of giving us a bad name for never having any stock of the goods we advertised, and rarely being able ot provide full kits as we never had any rads.

Back then also, the shipping costs escalated the price of the rads too much to import them into the UK unless bought in unrealistically large quantities - much the same problem that others are experiencing now with ThermoChill rads overseas...

The solution to this issue was ThermoChill. UK Produced radiators, no importing, no sitting round with a middleman ensuring you your order had been shipped when it was still sat in their warehouse with half of it missing as they'd swiped it to give to a bigger customer... if there was a rush on a line of rads, no waiting months for restocks... we can have them back on the shelves within 24hrs these days...

This filled a nice hole... list the UK Manufacturers in the watercooling scene... you only need one hand. Hell you don't even need a whole hand of digits... so anyone foolish with a jigsaw and lost a finger - join in!!

We as a company like, admire and respect ethics that work and mean something when applied directly to your own circumstances. Cathar's ethics in our eyes are impeccably perfect and we'll happily stand alongside him on the value of ethics by his definition. It is these ethics that form the relationship of trust between us... we won't work with unethical people - we've inadvertantly done so in the past but as soon as we've become aware we've severed all associations rapidly. A gentleman's agreement can go a long way...

The initial surge on a product is enough to cover development and prototyping costs... if the clone gets on the market first, or just early enough after initial launch, it can leave those costs lingering which prevents further work from being done... can't take the next step til you've completed the first step, and each step involves covering the costs for that step. If the release of the clones can simply be stalled by withholding information, that's enough to at least ensure we get the cost of prototypes back from the initial orders. The info and details can be let loose in the first reviews of the product, which will be enough to drive the product for the first month of it's life... "Might take a little longer" is the aime of the game at the moment - stall `em!

Heh - tell me about it! The servers hosting thermochill.com and over-clock.com both get DDoS'd on a regular basis, usually from the same army of zombies, usually to cover up a huge portscan from the same origination... the amount it's cost in FloodGuard protection this year alone is staggering compared to previous years.

Here you have four of the major players in the PC-Watercooling-Radiator-Production market... all giving their reasons behind why they think a rad-design subforum isn't going to be of much use to them as businesses... and that reason is purely a lack of ethics amongst those who can obtain access to that info... it is related, but the personal attacks have dragged things sideways a touch. Bear with... we'll get back on track ;)

yes id like a rad section aswell most kind ... oh and 1 for phyco babble/flames (takes tolong to filter thru) tnx

...and then knock one off that list... WACC just closed down - see http://www.wetandchillychips.co.uk

They were Britain's "European" manufacturer - 8mm quickfit tubing stuff based heavily on the German-designed waterblocks and accessories...