I'd been wondering how to broach this subject:
He's totally right about this. CU has made a point of testing only "off the shelf" samples for as long as I can remember.
Dave - I'm sure your intentions are good - you're just being responsive about RMAing a potentially defective unit - as I've seen you do with anyone here who's had a problem with a CSP-whatever. But you can see how just the knowledge that a particular unit is going off to a reviewer has to at least tempt a manufacturer to, at the minimum, make sure they don't get a bad one?

On the other hand, there are lots of reviewers who primarily test "free" (as in given to them by someone potentially interested in seeing a good result) samples. It was this "Well, I guess most samples come directly from the mfgr anyway" thought that left me wondering whether I should say anything or not.

And of course Bill just cut through my dither with two sentences. Welcome back guy! We definitely need your input here.

Too be honest Bill, I have no idea what Roscal has now :(

I suspect it is maybe one of DD early test models?

I have private from him suggesting his pump is running at 5000-6000rpm, which should be impossible!

This would explain the noise :)
He sent me a wave file, and it sounds like to pump is running in free air.

Yes, the pump is will produce noise in air, it is a fluid bearing pump.

Too date, only one MAG fail, due to bad cord, and several with the "ticking" which I have yet to track down. Seems to come and go, and I can not get anyone to send me one back, because it goes "away".

I have noticed, that the ticking reports stopped when we went to the injected ABS motor cap's, so I wonder if it is some over-sized caps.

And Bill, you shouldn't be pointing out problems with pumps now should you?

**"I've seen you do with anyone here who's had a problem with a CSP-whatever"
Yes Bob, I want to test a "ticking" MAG and no one will send me one :(

Never mind, Roscal privated me he had his RPM call mixed up, he is running 2500 in fluid :)

That really had me confused there, was worried he had a high head MAG.

Sounds more like he has a damaged impeller. We have changed the design a bit recently too add strengh for shipping concerns.

Off topic, since I've never heard an mcp350, but here's my 2 cents:

My 1048, mounted with 1/2" foam (a pan sponge) is inaudible outside of my (well damped) case. It's barely audible placing your ear up to it with the case open. Note that this is with a new impeller assembly. After 2 years of continuous running it developed a nasty rattle (shaft and impeller wear), but did not lose performance. The new impeller was 7 bucks, but another 7 to ship.....grrrrrr.

I briefly tried a D4 and it's whine was intolerable, even undervolted. When Cathar posted his findings on overall pump performance, taking into account the D4's heat dump to water, I went back to the 1048 and was much happier. The 1048 is pretty big though, and wiring for 110v is a bit of a pain.

Perhaps Roscal could receive an RMA for his current pump and buy another through commercial channels.

However, the real issue is an interesting one: is there an issue with pumps not being uniformly quiet? If so, what is the percentage that are unacceptable, and blah blah other statistical measures of quality. Hard to do unless you get access to the factory or get an unbiased and large sample of the customer base.

Good point Brian, maybe there should be a "noise" test during inspection.

I will bring it up, but given MAG MarkII is all injected (plastic and alloy), there should be very little inconsistencies, much like the OEM product.

??
we sell hundreds of pumps per month
I handle all pump returns
sorry Dave, I do think I am REALLY qualified to talk about pump problems
-> ck the title of this thread

remember Dave, Swiftech is a reseller of pumps, not a mfgr; we buy the best we can source

I too have a C-Systems Mag pump, you do NOT want to hear what I think about your company's QC capabilities/efforts/results

^ And yet there has only been one report of a failed MAG on this forum, and this turned out not to be a problem?

We produce about 5000-10000 pumps per month (OEM) and just finishing tooling for an additional 10K per month, for two large US companies, and yet you continue to suggest we have no idea what we are doing, and that you are "all knowing".

I can only assume your judgement is based on our retail product finish, which is a result of request made on this forum, for a Delrin pump chamber case.

The case was my suggestion, again based on the request from here, and will soon be replaced by an injected part, which should adress finish.

I know only my experience
ck with one of your resellers for addl info on failure rates, 2ed hand info to me
yes, the molded part should help (reduce the inspection and rejection ??)

Dave, I know nothing about your 10s of thousands of 'other' pumps
I observed your initial Mark series beer pumps as reported on this forum
(and then understood why Dan chose not to send me any samples)
and I am observing the Mag series now
while Swiftech could utilize a lower cost/performance pump, nothing about C-Systems inspires any confidence
Dan used his first reseller pretty hard, would never go there (pumps with NO warranty ??)

part is philosophical, I used to work for a company that also did its field trials using the initial customers
don't like that drill, prefer testing and evaluation prior to shipment

Dave I am not a competitor, I buy pumps - just won't buy unproven things w/o specs and a history
been burned too many times by pump mfgrs who 'knew it all'

^ I just talked to DD guys, they had one pump fail at a show this weekend, no idea why yet as they did the install right there.

Not sure who you are talking to, but this makes for 3 pumps reported, and one returned, which works out to less then 1 per 1000. 1 from D-Tek, 1 from Over-clock, and two (maybe) from DD.

I only personally seen one pump "dead" and I will be happy to send email to the customer, asking if he would like to talk to you and confirm the cord was damaged, as I sent the failed pump back to him along with his replacement.

We changed the circuit board design soon afterwards, to strengthen the cord mounting.

I think you and Dan already had it out, why do you keep bringing it up?
This is a productive forum, let's leave it that way please.

Yes, the MarkII should be more constant, as unlike current retail MAG, there are few "custom" parts. The only specific part on MarkII, over an newer OEM MAG model, is pump chamber / mount and that too is injected.

Again, you have a OEM company to thank for this, as the retail numbers by themselves do not justify tooling costs :)

am i the only one w/ a 1250 that ran hot? i mean, when i ran that thing all day, it was warm to the touch. but it was pretty quiet. i think my DDC is quieter though. i can't really do a comparison since i sold the 1250. my DDC did "tick" every now and then but i thought it was just air. it has since stopped.

Dave, I think what Bill is saying is that Swiftech is looking for a nice low end pump from a price point of view. And the Mag is close to fitting what they are looking for. The only issue seems to be quality control and the way it is handled.

This is, of course, conjecture on my part...

I quite agree with Bill on the C-system MAG and the QC. I mean if the pump was so perfect why are small changes and tweaking always being done, expecially after a RMAs?
These problems with like bad boards and wire monting tells me C-system hasn't succesfully worked out the kinks yet. They are still fine tuning.
I'm cheap but i don't like cheap quality. I'm still waiting about a year or so to buy two MAGs when C-sytem finally gets things fine tuned and is done tweaking.

Imagine whats happens in 2-3 years when people run the MAG pumps 24/7 and then the problems start to show up and snowball like when.....

......Pumps are always a sore spot for Bill because I think Bill's wallet is still a little lighter. Don't worry Bill, I got another $100-150 dollars to spend on WCing in a month or two. BTW your stuff looks tantalizing hot.

"wire monting tells me C-system hasn't succesfully worked out the kinks yet"

Our client admitted that he carried the pump by the cord, kind of explains why he had a problem :)

Even so, he was honest and we replaced his pump free. I figured someone else may do this as well, as if it happens once, likely to happen again, so we modified the cable mounting.

Plywood, even if Bill wants the MAG, he is out of luck. We stopped taking orders for retail MAG's until the MarkII is ready, because we need all our machine time for post-processing of OEM products. The Delrin machined pump chamber just takes too long to produce, the MKII uses an injected chamber half with little post processing.

AVT is sending additional equipement up from US office, to help C-Systems meet client needs.

Is the DDC loud or not? Seems to be an interesting question from many people here. The DDC from first release has been updated for better results. A new IC is being used, so the noise level on the newer DDC pumps sold should be even quieter. Also, there was a startup issue with a few of the older pumps too.

Laing is doing a great job now with the DDC pump. If anyone has an issue with the startup of a an older DDC pump, please contact Laing in the USA and send them the old pump back for a newer one.

Mike Solso
Industrial Division Manager
Laing Thermotech, Inc.
830 Bay Blvd., Suite 101
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Direct Ph: (619) 591-2460
Direct Fax: (619) 591-2461
Mobile: (951) 515-9044
http://www.lainginc.com

^ "Is the DDC loud or not?"
Mike, leave it alone, trust me it just starts people arguing :(

All the newer designs seem very quite. Is DDC, MAG or 1048 the quitest?
Seems to depend on who you ask, and there pump example.

I think as factory rep's, we should allow others to test, and only comment if something seems clearing wrong / defective.

Just a suggestion :)

welcome stev

Agreed, nice to hear from you Stev.
And welcome back BillA, did the rules change?

no, I'm sitting a balky bench and bored to tears
I'll shut up again shortly

^LOL
Me too Bill, going to be real busy in about a week or so.

Funny we both seem to have a little more time to ourselves at same time :)

Hi Stev, thanks for the info.
I've got an early Mcp350/DDC no rpm. no start-up prob. Modded.
I'm curious, how are the pump characteristics changed with the new IC?
As a tech junky, all info is appreciated!

When leak-testing, the DDC was powered independantly by an AT powersupply.
DDC was sooo quite... the low rpm fan from the PS was louder!!

Keep hoses isolated!!! that's what makes noise from an otherwise near silent pump!.

My whoppa project just finished, gone from working over 80 hr weeks to working low to mid thirties. Nice to see the kids and wife again....

Wang,

The older pumps were taken out of the retail chain and the newer pumps are in the market place now.

Laing is a really great, top notch, company. They know pumps from the biggest to the smallest sizes.

Stev

Very interesting, Stev. Are you able to post a serial number for the IC changeover?

Laing managed the change over.

Any info on likelihood of addition of RPM monitoring to Laing-D5?? Or passing the hint on? ;)

been promised since Jan, delivery a tad slow

Ahhh but it's the detail that I was after! :) Thnx for the background info tho.
Would've been of interest to know how the new IC corrected the start-up prob. not that I recall what may have caused it in some units in the 1st place... heh.
OT: I vaguely remember about soldering a wire to the CB to get rpm on the old model?

Wang.

Wang & H-S,

If you visit the System Cooling forum for this little pump, much detail was given for the extra wire and TACH feedback. Even a voltage speed control diagram for the pump exists there.

I second stev's post in its entirety
I have never encountered another pump mfgr so open to accepting that there was a problem nor so prompt to address the issue