You can get these at the hardware store. M3-M4 I assume is the metric size. I use these for my rad mount too after seeing them used for hardrives. Never thought about using them as mobo mounts.....

Dave I like all those ideas you have. designed towards more efficient pumps.
Don't listen to all the haters. We should be nuturing ideas not dissing them.


It should theorectically increase pump service life.
Lowers pump noise when not being used. Not all WCing users will isolate noise
Lowers
Uses less power.
and can be controlled/ monitored is anything bad happens.
All positives.

"haters"
??
demonizing dissent now ?
not how technical discussions are conducted

1) Would love to hear your scientific theory on that.
2) According to Dave the MAG is already dead quiet so why is noise an issue? http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...5&postcount=20
3) Umm, your power supply (or power bill) is not going to care much about 8watts at the pumps full load eh?
4)Monitoring is useless if your not around eh? What you want it a automatic shut down... Umm, oh yeah, any major mobo made in the last 2 years already has that....

What you really want is some fancy looking crap that really does nothing useful to make yourself look cool to those few people that see your computer because you may think they actually care. Kinda like the ricer fanboy/wannbe's that buy a 93hp civic for $1,000 and put $5,000 into the LOOKS of the car and then actually pay someone to put on a expensive muffler that makes those 93HP sound like ass. Can't forget the R-TYPE sticker either. That's good for another half inch right? And then drive around acting like they own the road.

What I am getting at is why don't spend our time now perfecting the things that are actually beneficial to performance and THEN worry about the flash... Let's get a pump that is "really" dead quiet so it doesn't need voltage mod (oh yeah, and has an active and functional QC department). Let's get a pump with a built in shut off switch that detects flow when it stops and shuts the comp off. And better yet con a mobo manufacture to make a mobo with built in pump support instead of half assing a fan header.

After all this is PROcooling. Not LooksGoodcooling. :)

feeling better now jd ?
lol

cor... u can nearly count the teethmarks...

Hehe. Little tense trying to get this BF2 editor to keep from crashing.... :D

JUST a little tense, man someone needs to go some shaitsu massage to relieve some of the tension. Man I'm glad i have some thick skin, I got a mouthful...

I'm about pushing ideas and constructive criticism. Not bashing them..... Well not all the time. If Dave is pushing for improvements I'm for it. The mobo header is not a bad idea and heading in the right direction which is good for everyone except for the rabid BF2 induced bitemark I got. I was just supporting the idea.

IMHO a pump shutoff is good but when you can shut off the comp at CPU temps of 50C or 60C in the BIOS whats the GODDAMN point. Not every mobo has that option though so I realize that and not everyone has load temps under 50-60C. Did i go screaming that idea is for stupid cheap ass WCing user who cant afford a decent mobo or a decent setup. NO, I realize the different types of users out there.

I'm just saying i don't mind someone pushing the envelope for WCing. If its an improvement in the looks, addons, performance, reliability, or cost area. As long it works properly I have no problem with it. If looks didn't matter we be all for dating ugly broods and not washing our cars and wearing ugly clothes JD.

Some people have better hearing than other. It's a shame i have bigger ear lobes than a normal person and more perceptive to things like a slight gust of wind. I'll ask my girl for a PB sandwich from across a room and she'll hear " I m not going to be part of a dp sandwich." I like to read and meditate andI don't want to hear a slight humming or clicking that i can hear from a htpc that is recording. For a gaming rig I don't care as much because i have headset on anyways. A pump is only dead quiet is because a person is deaf or the pump is off for my HTPC citerion.

In general I'm not into flashing things and I'm kinda cheap. I have two dfferent citerions for pumps. My gaming rig pump all it has to do is turn on and off, be relatively quiet, doesn't mysterious fail, have above AVERAGE performance and be light on my wallet.

I'm still looking for a pump suitable for my HTPC and fits my citerion for a HTPC rig. I want it so I can't hear it hum, click, slosh. Must be small enough for HTPC SFF or mini atx cases. I want it to be control by software because i don't want to open the box to change settings, and i can monitor so i can display it on my VFD if I like so i can impress my buddies or guest. So i do like to show off and justify build a $2000 rig. I better do that or I'd hear it from my lady.

I am now even more confused. You want a quiet water pump for a HTPC? Why on earth would you even bother water cooling one? You don't need high end parts for such a comp. Drop in a AMD mobile CPU at 35 watts and underclock it and use a nearly passive cooling system. :shrug: Your hard drive will be louder than the cooling. And won't you be watching TV anyway? How are you going to hear it over that?

Another thing I find lacking sense is your 3rd paragraph. What idiot would have poor computer parts and then spend money water cooling it? Why not spend the money on water cooling to buy better computer parts? :shrug: You don't put a turbo on a car with a dying engine.

Next is the thermal shut off. Sure your bios will shut the comp off at 50+C but remember those little software programs that will shut it down at whatever temp you want? How is running that software any different than running software for pump control?

Also I am not bashing anything thing. Simply waiting for a logical reason why these things should be done. So far all I heard is excuses lacking logic. Still waiting for an answer to #1 above BTW?

After all your rambling there I still see no reason what so ever why such a thing needs to be done?

Well let me ramble on since you deem it necessary to take it out on me when your BF2 crashes....

Well some guys like to buy OEM computer setups that sometimes don't offer BIOS options like thermal protection. Some do and it is getting more common but i think 3rd-4th tier Mobo manufacturers may still leave it off.
That type of software with themal shutoff is usually Bios related, no option in bios means your out of luck.Hey I've heard morons not even have it on and fry there CPU's and mobos.....That is why pump shutoff is good for the people with lower computer IQ. I can say I don't need pump shut off but it's still nice to know it's there and computers have another failsafe.

Why would I want to WC a HTPC....
Well if you have a vid card, HDTV card, 3 MCE cards, a Audigy2 sound card, 3 hard drives recording two shows at once or record a show and surf online that HTPC does get hot. I can tell you the AMD 64 mobile at 1.4 Volts still doesn't like all that hot ambient air around it and a hot PSU next to it and it records shows 4-5 hours straight sometimes and is on all day. It's like I said, if i spent @$2000 for a HTPC why underclock it. That helps alleviate the problem but the problem is still there and my CPU is slower when rendering video that is all CPU driven. I'm losing up to 30 mins. Plus, when i do record shows i might doing something else other then watch TV so i can hear the HTPC. When I am watch my record movies or favorite shows the neighbors can hear me and the HTPC reminds me why i spent so much money and why it's worth all the frustration. My HTPC is about making no compromises. Silent, earns it's value, powerful, ease of use, and has a cool factor.

The hard drives i've isolated in solid alum cooling enclosures and rubber mounted on grommets and standoffs on what Marci used for mobo isolation. Took me an additional $80 just for the parts on the HD's and countless hours working it out. I gone out of way over the top to silence the HD's. my new rig will have HD's in HD enclosures and i'm adding zalman heatpipe cooler.

Finally #1 if a MTBF value is based some how related with a machine running at a RPM for a certain amount of time before a pump fails, then having the pump run at a lower rpm might increase it's life. Lowering Rpm you can reduce the # of rotations for that time frame. That can reduce friction over amount of time, heat from friction, wear on materials, and possibily several other factors I don't know because i don't calculate that stuff. MTBF are very complex so I don't know what variables they use in calculating it.

Just imagine run a car at an average 6000 rpm for 2 years vs 2000-3000 rpm in the same time frame in the same control conditions. The car doing the 6000 rpm is more likely to have more wear not just in the engine but the entire car itself. If i have to explain that theory I'm wasting my time.

I'm sorry Jaydee but not everyone is smart like you and will put a turbo in a dying engine or go out an WC PIII and T-birds. I don't know why they do it but in their minds it make sense. At least I know you are smart enough to lay off R-type stickers and loud exhaust on a 1.6L sohc D series. Turboing a Honda like a B18C5 is taking it out of it's NA tuned setup. Why do that when you can build a better tubo setup on a Nissan, Toyota, or Diamond Star? Sounds retarded to me.

I am not sure what your arguing here anymore.

Still waiting a logical answer. Don't take it personal BTW. If someone buys an OEM computer then they have no reason to mod it on any level. I see no reason for a manufacture to cater to the few that do such a ridiculous thing. OEM computers shouldn't be opened.

Water cooling is still a enthusiast market for everyone but commercial and military uses. Enthusiasts do not buy OEM computers.

Personally I don't see why anyone would spend $2000 for a HTPC either. With that kind of cash you could buy more appropriate products to do the things an HTPC does but better and not worry about noise. Also if you are so attached to TV you feel the need to record that much then you got other issues to work out. :D

So please tell me were this market is for such a thing? Why would a company piss away time and money on something that not only is useless but there is little market for? I would rather see a pump made for such a thing first. The one's on the market today are not up to it. One step at a time eh? Lets not build the engine before we designed the car?


Also still waiting for an answer to #1 above.
Also I didn't say put a turbo in a dying engine. I said it was stupid to do so. Much like water cooling a T-Bird or older P3 in this day and age were you can buy a faster system for the same price as a good pump and radiator....

Anyway like I said, nothing personal just a serious difference of opinion. :)

Jaydee, i have to take it personal after your tirade on me being a ricer and lambasting in great detail how I'm retard to the same degree like ricers how fix there cars. How would you feel if some did the same to you?

You truely crossed the line and say it's not personal? You are getting your panties in a wad over that turbo statement when I should add "and people not smart as JAYDEE will put a turbo on a dying motor." Sorry but i was being sarcastic but you didn't get the intonation of it.

You say it's not personal after how many cheap shots you throw at me?? How is it any of your freaking god damn business I have a $2000 htpc?
BTW the HTPC is for my girlfirend and her sister as they love TV to death. I sometimes share some of the video recordings online or record a ballgame for my brother. I don't watch that much TV, I prefer surfing porn online on 48 inch HDTV. Nothing like Tera Patrick pre boob job almost life size. With the surround sound man i can swear she is almost in the room!! So I blow $2000 on a HTPC and about a $10000 on my theater setup. Some people like $200,000 yacht, some blow it on hookers, booze, drugs and gambling. Whatever floats the boat Jaydee.

I was being coy and joking around about procooling not being a nuturing and about haters on procooling. It does get a little harsh evidence how my little joke turned medival. Even Bill made a lighthearted remark about that comment I made.

External Fan/pump control idea gets my vote. Pump shutoff included for Jaydee because i am convinced he will kill me if it didn't come with it.
:p

I just asked for some logic. 12V Software controlled Pump

That pumps gay as carson from queer eye. But that Orange one looks so delicious. It will go with my orange themed Versace. :rolleyes:

It has tons of glitches and software that doesn't work and really underpowered. The software idea is kinda cool if it WORKED. Plus it's might be too big for my case and i got a vfd already. I spent a lot of money on my HTPC but i want value which I'm getting out of it. $50 VFD lying around is not usefull since i got $200 in WCing stuff lying around and hear all the time what i'm gonna do with that junk.

I get what you are saying about the logic of my statements. I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the 3 pin header, I just didn't feel like typing that much at the time but you had to get me in the mood JAYDEE.

I general i think this is a postive for all Wcing users because most of us run our rigs 24/7 and this does reduce power, heat, and noise, and offers monitoring and adjustablility.

With a 3 pin you can attach to a fan controller. This allows you to control the pump's power kinda like with the mcp 655 at different settings. Big difference is it is more on the fly and more accesible with a controller so I don't have to open a case to lower the pumps setting like mcp655. That type of adjustability appeals to me for all my computers.

This allows me to lower the pumps power and noise a bit when the comp is in idle and not recording. This also lowers heat dump from my computer and PSU so that is good for everyone. I mean 9-7 watts per hour isn't bad but if you can get it lower why not? Jaydee, You seeing it being pointless but I see it being more effiecient.

The pump has a small height so that helps with smaller htpc cases. Plus the MAG is a powerful enough pump to my taste. Around 6ft head and 300 gph.

The 3 pin also allows fan monitoring software to monitor the pumps rpms and so C-systems/ AVT doesn't need to offer that stuff so they can concentrate on making OEM pumps. All they need to worry about is the pump works fine on 3 pin header.

I hope you get my point now. I would of made it sooner if Hannibal Lecter didn't show up. Cheers.

It has tons of glitches and software that doesn't work and really underpowered. The software idea is kinda cool if it WORKED. Plus it's might be too big for my case and i got a vfd already. I spent a lot of money on my HTPC but i want value which I'm getting out of it. $50 VFD lying around is not usefull since i got $200 in WCing stuff lying around and hear all the time what i'm gonna do with that junk.

Its got the same power as a 1048, which is MORE than enough for an htpc, unless you're using stupidly restrictive blocks. However, its near on 3x the price of the mag, its ugly, its huge and you're paying for the monitoring software + extra crap you dont need... ring a bell?


I get what you are saying about the logic of my statements. I think you misunderstood what I was saying about the 3 pin header, I just didn't feel like typing that much at the time but you had to get me in the mood JAYDEE.


Connect a molex to the power, another adaptor to the rpm, then make your own connector to fit it to the motherboard. Use speedfan to control the pump via temps.


I general i think this is a postive for all Wcing users because most of us run our rigs 24/7 and this does reduce power, heat, and noise, and offers monitoring and adjustablility.


Ok, power. Quick maths, mag = 8w, assume 6v lowest operating point, assuming half the power used at half voltage, so 4w.

Ok, say 8cUS/kwh, over 4w. Which is 2.80 a year, assuming 100% uptime... 0.01% of your HTPC's cost. Seem worth it now power wise?

Noise - Apparently the mag is very quiet, as quiet as a 1048, which doesnt need undervolting. Even complete noise FREAKS dont consider the fact that it needs undervolting. Add a layer of foam, then a metal shell if you're REALLY wanting it to be quiet, but i doubt you need it...

Jaydee, You seeing it being pointless but I see it being more effiecient.

If you're willing to wear the costs for a near pointless upgrade, then i guess its alright... but that seems illogical, considering theres no real benefit for it. The difference with a 655 is, that it IS too loud for a lot people.

At the end of the day, i see what you're getting at. But personally id rather that any possible problems be avoided, and more money go into the actual pump itself, to make it quieter. Personally, i dont WANT to know about the cooling in my htpc. If it fails, the comp should turn off. I dont need software to tell me anything, i have software telling me cpu temps, which is more than enough. If you want more, well, you can do it with molexs as i illustrated above, but really it just seems like overcomplication for no real benefit.

Come on guys, stop fighting over a simple feature.

Fact is people asked for it, and we gave it too them. More important is an OEM company requires it, if only for marketing. From what I understand from Dan, as I have never worked for a large company, marketing is "GOD" in most large companies and whatever they say goes.

Going to be off the board for awhile, many projects over the next weeks :D

Its got the same power as a 1048, which is MORE than enough for an htpc, unless you're using stupidly restrictive blocks. However, its near on 3x the price of the mag, its ugly, its huge and you're paying for the monitoring software + extra crap you dont need... ring a bell?

I'm planning to get Storm blocks to replaced my Dtek ww and add one to my HTPC. I think I coverd Astek 12V costing 3x of MAG and underperforms it, ugly, big, and extra crap which I covered. You like being redundant?

Connect a molex to the power, another adaptor to the rpm, then make your own connector to fit it to the motherboard. Use speedfan to control the pump via temps.

I understand that but I didn't KNOW THAT. I just read the pump would run off a 3 pin header....

Ok, power. Quick maths, mag = 8w, assume 6v lowest operating point, assuming half the power used at half voltage, so 4w.
Ok, say 8cUS/kwh, over 4w. Which is 2.80 a year, assuming 100% uptime... 0.01% of your HTPC's cost. Seem worth it now power wise?

You forget watts = heat as well and psu wattage draw is .70-80% power and means I get more heat dump. Hey, $3.00 gets me one more beer for my friend or for me and I didn't do anything. That is why it's so good.

Noise - Apparently the mag is very quiet, as quiet as a 1048, which doesnt need undervolting. Even complete noise FREAKS dont consider the fact that it needs undervolting. Add a layer of foam, then a metal shell if you're REALLY wanting it to be quiet, but i doubt you need it...


You're not a noise freak so you shouldn't comment. MY pump would be isolated and foamed and rubber mounted but HTPC cases not same as normal ATX cases.
HTPC cases are smaller and SFF extremely small and transmit more noise with aluminum shell and frames. Again 3 pin header gives me the power to possibly reduce the noise with a turn of the knob. I know the MAG is quite, maybe the quietest around but quieter is always better.



At the end of the day, i see what you're getting at. But personally id rather that any possible problems be avoided, and more money go into the actual pump itself, to make it quieter. Personally, i dont WANT to know about the cooling in my htpc. If it fails, the comp should turn off. I dont need software to tell me anything, i have software telling me cpu temps, which is more than enough. If you want more, well, you can do it with molexs as i illustrated above, but really it just seems like overcomplication for no real benefit.

1) I'm getting tired of mofos commenting on HTPCs when they don't have one or never even built one. Seems utterly silly for someone to comment on a topic they have NO EXPERIENCE on. Think about that for a sec.

I'm doing what suits my needs, not to please some guys on Procooling. Jaydee and Etocvada spend all this time and money on DIY Waterblocks. Do i comment on your hobbies, no. Again i have no experience on it but i understand you guys enjoy it, bottomline.

2) I not retarded that i cant make my own 3 pin header off the current molex cable. I just didn't have that info till i read the post and wouldn't want to avoid warranties doing something i shouldn't do. Imagine if I ran a 3 pin header on a mcp 655 and it broke and returned it to Bill and he found out. What do you would happen? Voided warranty.

3)Offering 3 pin doesn't hurt anyone so why all the complaints? All you get is different 3 pin for MAG pump or current 12v molex. If it runs off my fancontroller then it is a positive for me. That's all to it so what you guys want to whine about next?

man, someones a little touchy. My post does seem harsher than its intention, however.

I will say one thing however, it would serve you well not to assume things in the future;

A) 4w of heat is completely negligible, a harddrive at idle uses 12w or more.
B) offering 3 pin suggests that it will work on all motherboards. Not so, older boards have lower power thresholds, a very large number of socket A boards only handle 8w, which obviously enough is enough to burn the header out on the motherboard at starting with a MAG. Its not a good feature for a manufacturer. Hell, c-systems can do whatever the hell they want, but as a manufacturer, its just asking for trouble in my opinion. You always have the option of doing the molex mod yourself. More features ARE a good thing, but for a company introducing potentially harmful features is foolhardy, and in the US probably grounds for legal complaint. Basically you're suggesting a company add an option on a pump that they claim is silent already, for literally zero benefit (assuming the pump is silent) which could introduce problems for the user AND possible lawsuits?

C) I AM a noise freak. I own a 1048, I sold my AQ50z because it was too loud for my tastes; most people call those pumps 'quiet'. I find my enermax noisetaker at lowest fan speed at idle too loud. If i can hear it, its too loud. I cant hear my 1048 when its running in open air, let alone in the back of my HT rack in my HTPC. Im considering a MAG, but only after some independant reviews and some time to see if its MTBF lives up to expectations, and that it doesnt get significantly louder over time.

Yeah, I have an HTPC which has been, and will very soon again be watercooled (for the fun of it, and for a mod that im doing - not because its neccessary, because its simply not) and im a noise freak. Dont assume things, eh?

Don't mobo fan headers typically use PWM for speed control?

What impact would this have on hall-effect sensor pumps and their life-span?

And that is what I was asking for in the #1 question several posts ago that said something to the effect of

I also find it hard to believe voltage cycling is good for a pump.

I still don't like the idea of my pump being hooked into the motherboard (RPM sensor OK though, just not the power). With all the short cuts they take.....

I have a Crystal Fontz CF633 that is powered by a molex which I think might work fine with the pump Dave mentions. I could even show the pumps RPM on the LCD if I choose and I could have it shut the pump off if the RPM gets to low... And yes I could change the speed with temp with one of the thermal probes on the unit.

Might be averted by putting in a simple circuit with a cap and a couple of resistors to even out the current.
Though it would ofcourse have an impact on price.

That was exactly what I was thinking of with VFD or matrix orbital kits available. I haven't heard of crystal fontz. I'll look it up. I doubt my current VFD is comptitable of doing any of that stuff but i could always replace my VFD. I always end up buying more stuff even though I try to reason myself not too.

I agree. Dramatic voltage changes would not be too good for the circuitry inside the pump and quick changes in rpms doesn't seem healthy at all. That's why i said in theory it might help increase life but I only presented the potential positives and none of the negatives you pointed out. It was in the back of my head but I was busying arguing other PERSONAL points.

I agree on DEFINTELY not running it off a mobo fan header. I think it's too risky. Could cause instabilities in the systems since many WCing are overclocking as well. I'm guessing worse could happen running off a mobo header but I'm drawing blanks.

I like the idea of a fanspeed controller powering a pump but I'm on the fence now. Most run of a 12v molex or floppy 4 pin connector. What worries me is overvolting the pump with a fan controller?
If frequent and fast changes in rpm's is bad for the pump it seems like an external speed control could potential be a negative

Etacovda. I apologize if i jumped to conclusions. BTW Noisetakers make too much noise, way too much. I would replace it with a silenX unit. Can't even hear it, honestly. I tried some passives but they all get too hot and don't remove heat.

I run a silenx psu, 3 enclosed HD's on custom mounts, Artic silencer, and a single 120 mm fan at 22db's. Loudest is Zalman csp7700 around 25-28 Dbs. Loudest actually is the cdrom when burning. Got to replace pioneer 108. Any suggestions. I like the new BenQ dvd burner

Anyways, I'm waiting on Mag production changes to go into full effect and buy the pumps soon within a year or so. I'm hoping the new wave of MAGs live up to expectations too.

Max voltage a PC PSU puts out is 12v, max a PC Fan Controller can possibly put out is therefore 12v. That's a non-issue fella.... Fan Controller would only put out more than 12v if you hooked up to a PSU that dished out more than 12v.

Use NeroDriveSpeed to back the optical drive speeds off and reduce noise...

this may be of interest to some of you:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles1252/