Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Current watercooling gear is aimed at performance with a bend to silence. HTPC market should be silence first.

As per BillA's post in another thread, need a radiator designed for passive operation. PA160.1 is close.

My goal is single 120mm fan @ 7v (eg: tricod) for the entire system.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Identical to mine. Have constructed a makeshift case out of mdf, but will be doing a better job in the future once money permits.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Link? Photos? Performance? Issues?

I was going to put my fan above PSU sucking out of it, and then seal the case so that air could only get into the case via the radiator. Yes, everything in the case runs a bit warmer, but the things I care about will be WC and thus cooler.

You?

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

no links, only plans at this stage. I deem watercooling to be a pointless complication for the power requirements of the parts im using, so im going all air.

I plan to use a passive psu mounted in a seperate compartment, to not be effected by the heat of the case. A series of ducts with the 120mm fan pulling over hdd heatsink, graphics/pci slot stuff, cpu, then out of the case. Im relying on multiple chambers w/ dacron + foam walls to reduce noise levels, along with a duct drawing from underneath my ht cabinet.

Basically ill be trying a few fans, and getting the most airflow I can without hearing it significantly (and my noise tolerance is pretty low, but mdf is a damn fine noise insulator). The HDDs will be connected to a large passive heatsink which will be mounted with the fins in the intake area of the case. I have a relatively small area to work with and want to have ease of maintainence along with several hdd's in the space.

Course, as with any project, revisions are pretty common at the moment. What i have built now is a simple dual chamber box with PSU/hdds/DVD in one compartment, and the motherboard in the other, with a 120mm fan drawing out the heat over the cpu HS. Its not as quiet as id like it at present, and its definitely pretty botchjobish, but i wanted to get it done quickly.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

I've been gone for a while, but have been giving this project a lot of thought and am still planning on pursuing it. I appreciate all of the advice so far and welcome more, but we seem to be stuck on a particular issue: I say I want a silent computer and am countered with how easy it would be to make a quiet computer. We're not on the same topic when we do that and a rational discussion is impossible. The presence of a single fan is too much and too loud. One of my computers is an old P-2 with a single quiet 120mm fan plus the PSU and it was too loud. So I built a wooden enclosure for it and it was quieter, but still too loud. Now I have a resistor wired between the mobo and fan to lower the RPM's and it's quieter yet, but still too loud. So a two fan system with a custom made box at low RPM's is too loud for my application. Now, granted, I can still hear the hdd's in this system over the fans at times. And this is what originally got me thinking of watercooling--I wanted a way to cool the hard drives while being able to seal them in something as close to soundproof as I can design. Then the idea expanded to include total watercooling with a large passive radiator and fanless PSU's, then I stumbled upon submersion cooling and here I am.

It certainly appears that dunking the hard drives would be a bad idea and I have decided against this. I'm thinking of picking up 4 of http://www.koolance.com/shop/product...roducts_id=231these to cool the 8 drives and then sealing them behind mdf/insulating foam/whatever to silence them.

From there things get a bit fuzzy... I'm envisioning a small custom fish tank that is only big enough to house the mobo/pci cards and a submerged pump or two (and possible a PSU--need help here). The mobo would be mounted vertically and the top of the tank would be plexiglass. I could use a dremel to cut out the plexi to exactly fit the mobo and cards and probably even seal the two with silicon or something. With the exception of the cables (sata, maybe even power if the PSU is in there) this will create a sealed system. I would love some suggestions on how to get the cables out too.

I would like to use an eheim 1046 (maybe two) because it seems to be considered the quietest pump and can be submerged which I thought would further quiet it. I'm not sure if only 1 could be used for the 4 hard drive cooling blocks and a large radiator or if I'd need 1 for the hard drives and another for just the radiator. These lines would also enter and exit through the top plexi.

Here are my two biggest hangups right now and both seem to depend on the other. My original idea was to get 2 Antec Phantom 350's and just split the load (run them in parallel). However, if one were to fail I would lose half the RAID array and that would be disastrous. It seems to make more sense to use one large PSU to power everything, however, these all have fans. Now I'm considering sticking the fanned PSU in the Fluorinert but that would be adding a whole lot more heat to my system, require the use of a larger radiator which in turn would require a lot more Fluorinert to fill it and that's just a lot of money (It seems I can get the Fluorinert for $200-250/gallon and I would really like to stay in the 2-3 gallon range for the whole system) I would love some help in this area. I'm also looking at radiators outside of the computer or automotive arenas as they seem too small for passive cooling. I'm not sure exactly how big of a radiator I need though because I don't know how much heat it is that I'm going to be dissipating.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my opening paragraph. I'll agree with you, this is not practical. It's a hobby and a projectand something challenging I've never done before. A lot of the impetus is to just see if it can be done, and if it's done well, I will be thrilled. Any suggestions are very much appreciated.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

you should do more testing, (then post)
there is no shortage of fanless psus, buy some with the other equipment you plan on using and see how well they handle the load
- and do they too have an objectionable hum ?

I've tried several and they do smell toasty, is odor objectionable ?

once you resolve the psu setup, move to the next phase

talking about this and that all in a jumble is just talk, but hey - thats fun for some too
opinions never substitute for data

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Do you plan on having the Galden unpumped? If so, be prepared for bad temps. If you do pump the galden, be prepared for an unsilent computer. Pumps make noise just like fans.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

As far as the PSU goes, the largest completely fanless PSU of any quality that I am aware of is 350 watts. I can add, and I don't need to buy that to discover it won't power an 8 drive RAID-5 server. So I either need two, or one large PSU (with fan) in which case I will dunk it in the Fluorinert to silence and cool it. But you're right, I'm presenting too many options--there's too much going on. So for now, I am planning on buying a nice quality PSU with fan, say 500+ watts, and submerge it. How would I determine how much extra heat this is adding to my system? Besides the Fluorinert, it's looking like the radiator is going to be the most expensive part of this project. I don't want to just buy one and "whoops" find out it won't cut it, or conversely, get one that 's way too big and have to buy and unecessary amount of coolant.

Brians256, the Fluorinert will be pumped through some large passive as yet undecided radiator (once I figure out how much heat I'm trying to dissipate). I will submerge the pump which should help quiet it, but remember, this whole contraption is going to be built into a piece of furniture. That is where I am expecting the bulk of the quieting to come from. Do you think I have a chance of silencing a pump like this?

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Europe is the mkt for fanless psus, ck there (try cooling-masters)
seeking specific answers to undefined questions for a totally novel project on a forum is . . . . .

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Thanks, I'll check that out and see if I can find a fanless PSU rated for more than 350 watts (though my French isn't that great and Google's translation is even worse...)

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

I live in Sweden and these are the fanless PSUs I can think of.
Thermaltake W0050 350W
Antec Phantom 350W
Antec Phantom 500W, Not really fanless but they market it as fanless, maybe it could work if you removed the fans?

Maybe a couple of 350W PSUs?

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

I dunno, submerging 12v components vs submerging 120/240v components - i wouldnt want to risk playing with that sort of fire, personally.

If the fans are 'too loud', you're not using the right fans... its as simple as that. If an undervolted nexus is too loud for you, hard drives should drive you NUTS.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

A passive (=fanless) 550W PSU:
http://www.yesico.de/products/p_fl550atxt.htm
http://www.yesico.de/images/fl480atxt.jpg
They're not lying on the ratings. Yesico are up there in quality terms with Antec, very good circuitry, high quality components, oversized heatsinks.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

lol, no US distributors
perhaps Mark @ Frozen will pick it up

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Note, on back of that PSU it states "230v only" - check if they actually do em in 110v / switching format first!!

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

good point Marci,
I missed that completely;
(and those step-down transformers do hum, lol)

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Ha 110V :D forgot about that (and dont get me started on 60Hz either) - i suppose that if they want a US export model it wont be hard to change the plug and mains circuitry to handle the 110V..
Anyway i own a Yesico PSU myself, no hum, no whine, no noise at all, even when sticking the ear *near* it (it runs quite hot actually, esp. in my fanless setup).
I think other mfgers have similar PSUs, like Antec for instance ? I cant remember OTOH but you can dig SPCR. High power fanless PSUs are out there, they're not easy to find that's all :)

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

if you follow the "specifications" link it says "230 Volt / optional 115 Volt avaiable"

i imagine that the taiwan office may be the best bet - since their mains is 110V 60hz iirc...
http://www.yesico.de/buy_asia.htm

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

The power supply looks good, at least according to the specs, but being located in Boston, I really don't want to deal with the shipping or rma if there is a problem with it. The largest fanless psu that I've found available in the States is a 460watter by Luxurae or something like that--it's 12v rails are pathetic though and wouldn't cut it for the number of drives I want. I'm really seriously thinking I'm just going to dunk a fanned PSU. I'm a horrible artist and have no CAD like software, but I whipped this up in mspaint just so people can sort of visualize what I'm thinking and critique appropriately.

It's a glass case, dimension will depend on the pump, mobo size etc, but I'm hoping to make smaller than a typical midsize case. The top is plexi and I'll use a dremel to fit the mobo an pci cards nicely in there The blue blob is the PSU, I'm thinking of mounting it with the fan and cord facing upward. The pump (not drawn) I would like to suspend toward the top so it would be pumping the hottest liquid out. The outlet would go through 4 hdd blocks then to the radiator. The return, which I drew, I would have arranged such that it flowed directly over the processor. The cool liquid would sink and the PSU fan would sort of circulate it. I was/am still worried about the PSU fan's ability to push the liquid, but then I saw some guy who filled a fishtank with vegetable oil and has had the PSU fan running for over a year.

In keeping with BillA's suggestion to have specific questions, I have 2:

1.) I'm considering a smallish home heating radiator of the type seen here http://www.simplyradiators.co.uk/pages/aluminium.htm There is some data on it, but I'm having a hard time making it applicable to my situation. Considering the presence of a 500watt PSU in the liquid, near 0 airflow, but mounted on a cool to cold outer wall, how on earth do I go about figuring what dimensions I need for a radiator?

2.) What is the quietest pump that will work with this situation?

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Sorry, the picture's small and it sucks, but hopefully you get the idea. I'm going with a low voltage opteron processor (1.xx series)--only 55w. Going to try to decide on the mobo today so I can order it and start getting real dimensions, but I have to decide on a pump first before I order the glass to be cut.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

It doesn't say what the pump head required is on those radiators, even with the input valve all the way wide open. It is just impossible for me to guess on that one as I have no idea. Ask a plumber. They'd have a feel for it if they've ever installed those in a system. There are probably tables that are available. Hmmm.. why don't you ask the mfg? I'm sure they have a clue what the radiators require.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Antec Phantom 500W or 350 is worth considering. Phantom 350 needs some good airflow which you can accomplish with some 120mm low rpm fans. The 500 is basically the 350 with an annoying 80mm fan added.

Also consider the Ahanix Silenx PSU. I have one and its very quiet and solid performer.

If noises is really bothersome you should consider VIA chipset. It can run fanless and would be perfect match with phantom 350.
You could also run a pentuim M 479 chip and underclock it.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Thanks Brians256, I'll do exactly that. After a bunch of strange math using data on some of those radiators, I figure a 16" x 43" radiator of this type http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/manua...lectpanels.pdf (model No. SS 40 120 G) would be able to dissipate 382 watts with no air flow and a delta T of 50F. The radiator holds 0.63 gallons.

I'll contact the manufacturer and ask about pump recommendations, but I wanted to check that I'm looking in the right ballpark for heat dissipation amounts first. The system components so far are an Opteron 1.xx series (55w), mobo undecided, 3ware 9xxx series RAID card, 500 watt PSU and 8 hard drives. That whole system looks like it would draw less than 250 wattts to me. Stupid question, but a 500 watt PSU delivering 250 watts will release how much heat into the system? I can figure everything out but the PSU and would love some help on that.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Depends on PSU efficiency. Good psu have efficiency around 75%. Antec Phantoms are 80-90% efficient. Total heat dissapated is around 250/.8 for most psus.

I would look into getting a VIA cpu. This things give off less than 20watts combined with the mobo. They have new C7 cpu and EDEN cpu at 1.2-2.0 ghz. They can be passively cooled with the newest products having NB, IGP, and CPU all intergrated as single core. A epia or mini atx board might work for you since you need a single pci slot.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

ricecrispi you are correct. This is an edit because I just thought multiply when you were doing a divide. Ooops!
250/0.8 is correct for total system heat production.

Ultraviolet, remember that the thermal mass of that water and radiator is going to take a long time to reach equilibrium. So, if you don't use your computer all the time, you could achieve much better temps by simply turning it off or hibernating. Most people don't use their computer more than a couple of hours at a time. If you work on it, you might use it in 4hr shifts (taking a break for lunch).

Edited because I can't do math right the first time. Thank God I re-read my post.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

If you're building your case out of wood, why not build it like a speaker cabinet (MDF with wood-or-whaever laminate).
Baffle the intake and exhaust - and line the baffles with sound absorbent material - maybe foam like this stuff from Parts Express. Speaker builders have a lot of the same issues you're up aginst- keeping unwanted sounds inside a box, converting 'em to heat.

Of course having a sometimes-flooding basement to use for a home theater would be an excellent reason to go with a front projector (ceiling mount) and wall-mounted screen ("have to keep everything above the water line, dear...").
On the other hand, maybe you should be building in fiberglass or marine plywood, because of the high humidity.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

Just use marine grade polyurethane coatings on the case and put it up on rollers. Not waterproof of course, but strongly resistant, and keeping the bottom off of the floor will help it dry off.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

ha, no no. The stereo is not in the basement. I merely mentioned that my basement is very humid and floods about once a year as a the reason why I could not build the typical loud 15 fan RAID system and stick it in the basement where it wouldn't be heard. I toyed with using mdf, but I really prefer not to use veneer. I'll be using solid cherry and mdf only for the hard drive enclosure which will be internal and not visible. As soon as I have all my parts, I'll order the glass and build the small tank.

ricecrispi, thanks for the via epia tip. I'm seriously considering them now. The 3ware raid card is larger than the whole mobo!

I have gotten 0 responses from any radiator distributors or manufacturers regarding the recommended pump specs so I may just be buying a series of pumps off of ebay and reselling them if they don't work. I'm going to start with the 1046 as there seems to be consensus that it is the quietest pump and it is submersible. The whole system will hold between 2-3 gallons.

I've also decided to go with the Fluorinert FC-40 instead of FC-77 as it seems to be the better liquid for this project. Among other things, the FC-77 is actually not viscous enough, about 1/5th the viscosity of water at 40C. I don't want to deal with the leaks. I'm mulling over FC-43 because that's on ebay almost all the time, but that has a viscosity of nearly 3x water at 40C and probably would necessitate a larger (louder) pump.

Re: Galden ZT 150
 

If you really, really want to liquid cool your hard drives, why not just use (make or build) HDD coolers and sound insulate the whole thing? There's at least one pre-built solution for this.
Or.. use already pretty quiet drives, like the Samsung Spinpoints and mount 'em in something that reduces head-seek vibration transmission (a problem you're going to have to deal with even if you fully immerse them). The spinpoints run pretty cool, but you sould use the zalman heatpipe disk coolers as they also have vibration isolation - and you'd be able to reduce the airflow to the drives, reducing noise even more.