quote:
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Ok, so is everyone in the office booted, or do I just manually reset my DCHP assigned IP address?

heh, oddly I'm not banned this time.

I posted:

--Matt

Hrm. I see some people over at Hardforum asking why water temps matter. I can't address that there, but I have a soapbox here :)

Let's think about this.

If the water temperature isnt controlled, and performance is published ONLY as CPU temperature, then it is possible for a block with worse performance to be ranked as the top performer. Far better to publish Delta T (Die temp - water temp). The block that can get the CPU temperature closest to the water temp is the best. That seems pretty straightforward.

What is not so straightforward is the interaction between flow rate and performance. Blocks that are more restrictive will affect the performance of the radiator as well. So the water temp is shifting, the room temp is probably shifting, and the flow rate is different in every setup.

That testing is not especially useful then, unless you happen to have EXACTLY that same setup. And even if you do, it doesn't help you get any closer to optimizing said setup.

yeah were cool we can go flame other forums wow lets all do that and become lame


and what a snow flake on PRO HAHHA even more lame

it should be Where the completely lame come to talk

um, actually you flaming here is just as useless(you got brains kid). At least we are posting actual factual info.

--Matt

It's true; going to Hardforum and posting flames accomplishes nothing.

I was going to post something about your horrible communication skills Somnophore. Then, I realized how difficult it must be to use proper punctuation and capitalization w/o opposable thumbs.

Now you see why I said that thread was pointless?

So [H]ard...your momma asks for us by name.

..... How old is "Steve"?

yes. I'm actually surprised the [h] hasn't started deleting my posts yet(happened before). It just go's to show the kind of knowledge flowing around there.

--Matt

I agree pHaestus. The water temps are really needed. I've also stated before that the environmental measurements (temp and humidity) should be posted too, since they are a variable in the test.

There are many rads out there that will give out different results. This roundup didn't do anyone a service, except the BI Pro owners.

did they even use a BI Pro? The rad pictured is a BIX.

--Matt

aaw, let's ban people posting pro-accuracy info and delete their posts!

--Matt

Guys I just went through my posts and removed any personal attacks. I think it is pretty clear to everyone that there are some personal issues between one of the staff of H|OCP and virtually everyone on the ProCooling staff. No need to resort to public insults, however.

It's got an aluminium fan with no shroud. I can't tell them apart. Maybe someone else can?

[edited, to remove flame]

Ya pretty sure the picture is a BIX:

http://www.procooling.com/~phaestus/bixshroud.jpg

i am from hard ocp and i liked the review

it did what it was meant to do

show you how much you can expect a certain waterblock to cool your processor in a controlled as possible system

does the temp of the water going in and out of my waterblock matter if the temps in hte processor are lower? not even a little bit

the thin about the on die probe
yes they are inaccurate
but the inaccuracy is the same across the board

so it;s 10 degress off at low temps it's gunna be ten degree's off at higher temps

thereby giving you a good idea as to how much one black is better than another

everything else was the same so the waterblock was the only variable

do flowrates matter if the temp is lower? absolutely not as long as the temps are lower

you guys seem to want kyle to find the very best optimization for each set-up and comapre them

which would take months upon months of work for 19 blocks and is infeasible

he did the best he could by limiting all the factors down to just the waterblock

the ambient temps were the same
the rad was the same
same pump
same tubing system

the only variable is the humidity and the waterblock in use

Hope I don't join the list of the "silenced"
 

Ok wow, First off I used to just lurk around these parts but felt compelled to respond to this.

I'm an active HF member and spend a fair amount of time in the O/C forum, although Cool Cases is really my bag. Ironicly that forum is much better and at the same time neither kyle nor steve posts spends any considerable time there (<1 post a month). This latest banfest is just ****ed up. Some of your names are familar and pHaestus in paticular sticks out as being one of the last people I would ban from a forum. Now I don't agree with the assesment that the review was 100% useless. The review did show beyond a shadow of a doubt that certain blocks are better then others. (BTMS for example) Of course beyond that it was too lacking in detail to provide very many meaningful results. But going around gagging anybody who offers criticism, be it constructive or destructive will NOT change the fact that the article was "lacking"

Oh well, At least i know its safe to post conflicting statements without bannage here. I'm not going to touch this argument over on the [H] side.

Before you get flamed to death... Let me tell you this. This review is only good for the guy who made it, with *his* config. And yet there are inaccuracies so i would take the top-7 ranking with a grain of salt...
Any other ppl will have *different* results with those blocks because of a diff. rad, diff. pump, diff tubing and so on. The only way to tell out is to put CPU/Water delta temps, with a true thermal probe or core probe, and test out each combination of flow / tubing / rad.

If you can't grasp how water inlet temperatures affect CPU cooling then perhaps an example may help.

In the daytime, it gets up to 24C in my basement. I test a waterblock at this time, and it reports a temperature of 26C for water inlet temp and 40C for CPU die temp.

In the evening, there was a cold snap and the room got down to 22C. I test a second block and learn water temperature was 24C, and the CPU die temp is 39C.

Which block performs better?

39-24 = 15
40-26 = 14

The block with the higher die temperature is actually doing a better job of bringing CPU temp to water temp.

This is not reflected in the review in question, however.

Not sure who you guys were replying to so let me just clarify that im not defending kyle/steve in any way and I also think that delta T temps are the only way to fly. But you don't need two Cooling mods to tell you that, ask any highschool physics teacher, delta values are all that matter in the grand scheme of things.

(dan): we were replying to zCereal :p

First off, welcome to ProCooling.

The problem that we have with the review is multiple.

If you used a different rad, other than the Black Ice Extreme pictured (even though it's labelled as a Black Ice Pro), you may not get the same results, and in fact, if you did a roundup with it, you might come out with the blocks in a different order.

The temp probe was misquoted. If it was an in-socket probe (which it wasn't), then it would be fair to expect a ten degree difference from real temps. The problem is that it may not be so linear an offset as you think: pHaestus will be able to confirm this.

The innacuracy of the die probe itself, falls within a certain range. That means that from one day to the next, you might read a 3 degree difference, but the real temp would actually be the same. Now look back at the chart, and see how many blocks fall within that 3 degree margin of error.

Flowrates always matter.

this roundup should have been able to tell us if, by increasing the flow rate, we can extract a bit more performance out of a block. It doesn't.

The pump used, an Eheim 1250 is nice, but there are many, many other pumps out there that are not only cheaper, but will perform much, much better. I personally use a Little Giant 2-MDQ-SC. If you look [H]ard enough, you'll find it for less than the price of a 1250.

it stated in the review that the room temp was at 75 farhrenhiet at all times

so that point should be invalidated

and you got banned cause you were personally attacking the owners of the site
if you wanna criticize be constructive like i was in my above post

don't flame and be an asshat

and on the better performing blocks the water temp will be higher as they are removing more heat from the processor than other blocks. waterblocks are made to transfer heat from the CPU to teh water so if the transfer gets more efficent and the cooling (rad) doesn't then water temps will rise a bit.

was replying to zcereal.

Thanks for your kind words Dan_Dude regarding my posts on H|F. On ALL forums I try to be of use.

Do you post at Pheaton.com forums? I have found a lot of the same people from H|F case and cooling without all the noise.

I made no personal attack on the owner of the site. That would be Kyle and not Steve, btw.

Flow rates affect the heat dissipation of the radiator. This will raise water temps in instances of restrictive waterblocks even if the room temperature is the same. Hence my original comment that Steve (inadvertantly) tested the flow resistance of the blocks and nothing more.

Care to try again? Not familiar with the term asshat. Did that arise from the same place that thinks thermodynamics and cooling shouldn't mix?

I head over there every time colddog has a new work log but thats it :) , I'll have to check it out.

ok well i am not too sure about the probe being off 2 - 3 degrees from day to day
do you have any data to back this up that i could see?

this was a round-up of all the blocks
if you wanted to know if improving flow rates will improve temps then a round-up is not something you want to read. you would want to read a tweaking guide based on watercooling or something along those lines


and i use a danner magdrive 250 in my watercooling set-up

testing the flow resistance of the black is also valid

flow restrictiveness can affect the performance of a black

if hte block is poorly designed for flow rates then it will obviously perform worse than those designed to allow high flow rates

and asshat is a [H] term methinks

Or you would test blocks as a function of flow rate possibly. Here is some testing done by Bill Adams:

http://thermal-management-testing.com/wbCWcomp.gif

A somewhat interactive graph; pick the flow rate your system is geared for and choose block accordingly. Hint: the Eheim 1250 will NOT be on the right of the graph.

well, some blocks perform well with low flow, others with high. it's still not a very good comparison anyways because we have no idea what kinds of other restrictions he had on the lines nor do we have any kind of indication of flow at all.

--Matt