is that stuff antibiotic all together or is it microbiotic --bikr

Not sure of the difference ... it is used as an antibiotic for humans, though.

well.. the stuff I had that worked well was microbiotic it uses live organisms to kill that garbage.. it's actually bad very bad , the stuff that builds up in your tubing will build up nitrate levels and it's really not good.. these microbes will feed off of it untill it's gone and then it'll all die --Josh

That stuff will probably die inside the solution I'm going to be using when done. I'm going to leave some of the sanitizer compound in the system during my final fill ... that should keep things dead.

If all else fails, though, I'll try your route as well.

My knowledge of inorganic chem is lacking, but my guess is that the sodium hypochlorite oxidizes the copper.

In any case, water/NaOCl is extremely corrosive to metals. So far as I know, industrial chlorine separations plants keep water content very low, or else need to build pipes out of expensive superalloys.

And just in case you have no idea what you're doing, for God's sake, don't put ammonia and bleach in there together.

Alchemy

Not to be a dick, but I think prevention is the key here. Theres probably not going to be something thats powerful enough to remove all your deposits but not reactive with metals. Bacteria are probably the best bet (assuming it really is alge and not something reacting with the hyperlube), but I'm not optimistic.

If you're seriously concerned about this, I would change the tubes (or clean them outside of the system) and then use a biocide powerful enough to deal with microbs before they damage your stuff.

I know ... ammonia and bleach will kill you. I'm not THAT ignorant, hehe.

50 feet of tubing is quite a bit to replace, so I'd prefer not to do that. It still wouldn't help deposits that may be built in the other portions of my system. I feel my best bet is to kill it all, flush as much as possible, and then take hardcore prevention measures for the future. Eventually, it will all flush out through multiple flushes ... the pressure and flow is so great in my system that eventually it'll all be scoured off of the walls and be placed into suspension ... or settle at the bottom of my res.

Here are some pics of this nasty stuff:

This 1.5ft section of tubing WILL be replaced due to pressure wear (it is creating channels in the tubing's inner wall) in combination with the worst infestation in my system (sorry so fuzzy, but you can still see the red of the mold against the green, and the white is where the channels are etched):

Okay guys, this is the plan:

1) Full system drain
2) Full system flush (to remove prev. chems)
3) 1.5 hrs. 75% water 25% Pine Sol (antibacterial goodness)
4) Full system flush (remove the Pine Sol)
5) Live bacteria culture goodness (thanks Bikr) for a couple days
6) Add 10% sanitizer, run for a couple more days

At this point the stuff should all be dead and eaten. If it isn't, I have a bigger problem than originally thought.

7) Drain 25%, add 25% Pine Sol, run for 1.5 hrs (pick up as much into suspension as possible)
8) Full system flush
9) 80% distilled, 10% Hyperlube, 10% sanitizer (to keep stuff from growing again)
10) Profit! Oh, this isn't Slashdot ....

I'm going to start tonight ... I picked up the chems at Wal Mart and the hot tub dealer an hour ago. I'll let you know how things go and try to remember to take pictures. Doing it this way prevents me from having to disassemble the system completely, and during one of the drains I'll replace that length of worn tubing. I'm going to flood my downstairs neighbors out.

Here are the two chems from Walmart (one enzyme, one algaecide to go with the sanitizer):

*edit: forgot picture*

Here is the other WM chem:

The enzyme bottle recommends just a tsp at a time, but since I don't have to worry about killing fish, I'm going to dump 80% of the damn thing in there, with the other 20% to go into the sanitizer mix ... though it'll prolly just die, though then again it may do some good.

From my experience:

My full time systems get 10 - 20 % automotive antifreeze (Prestone, etc., the green stuff.) and I use 300 psi automotive grade hose (not clear tubing.) The rest is distilled water.

The cooling efficiency is not as good when you add more antifreeze.

The opaque (solid, not clear) hoses also cut down on organic growth (lack of light into the liquid.)

There is minimal growth over time. I haven't run a system more than 6 months without upgrading or taking things apart, but there has not been much, if any, scum to clean up after a 6 month period.

Anytime I do testing, it is usually for a couple weeks with just distilled water. Any gunk growth and I run 10% household bleach/90% distilled water through the system for about an hour.

I have never had a problem with it eating hoses, aluminum, brass, or copper, when run in that concentration for that short of time.

The antifreeze use has poison issues if you have pets and/or kids in the house, so you have to take that into account, or use something else.

I have run systems with the 10-20% antifreeze solution that contain aluminum, brass and copper, and have not had any problems over the years with corrosion.

My $0.03, your results may vary.

Args ... decisions decisions ... and only 30 minutes before I start! I may just have to add a dilute bleach run before the pine sol. Bill has me paranoid, though.

First, I would like to thank you all for your help. It has been greatly helpful, and I have solved the problem.

Let me start with some pictures (56K starts burning now):

And another:

As you can see, the tubing is now crystal clear. The solution to this quite simply was to run a high concentration of cleansers through it.

After much deliberation, I went with the following mixture after draining my system:

50% tap water
40% Pine-Sol
10% Lysol

The reason that I did it this way was twofold. While Lysol mixes readily with water, the Pine-Sol doesn't. Further, I figured that since they both are antibacterial and they both cut grime in different ways, it would be better to run them together to complement each other.

What I discovered was that after about two minutes the coolant went cloudy white. When watching the biotic colonies you could see them MELTING. It was awesome. After two hours, 95% of the gunk was washed off the walls and held in suspension in the coolant. At that point, I worked the hose by kinking it near each remaining patch so the water would scour it off. In the end there is barely any trace of infestation left in my system, and due to the dual cleansers I can be assured that it is dead.

Not being the type to trust, though, I have drained and refilled my system with water, aquarium algae killer, and sanitizer. If this doesn't do the trick, nothing will. So far the water has remained clear.

For all of you that didn't believe that your cooling system could be scoured without mechanical means: YOU WERE WRONG. All it takes is a strong enough witches brew and you can dissolve anything. I encourage you to give this a whirl and see how it works for YOU if you have this problem. I'll prolly check and see if I can write a sticky on this, because this is something that can help quite a few of us.

Tomorrow, I'm going to redrain and fill with distilled/hyperlube/glycol/sanitizer. That should keep me clear and beastie free from here on out.

On another note, the channelling that I thought I was getting on that length of tubing turned out to be organic buildup ... I was freaking out for nothing! I thought it was due to the high pressures I'm using!

I'm glad it worked out for you man.. =).. Good job..

Oops sorry guys I was afk and missed all this. Apologies in advance if my tangential knowledge is of little use.

The problem isn't killing the microbes, it is getting rid of the existing biofilms they form on surfaces. For this, you can try two approaches: Try to get the pH of the solution to a point that the microbes don't adhere well any more. Low pH is better for this (dilute nitric acid at ~ 0.01 or 0.001 M would be what I'd try first). The other option is to add surfactants to solubilize the microbial gunk. This is more or less what airspirit did with success.

If I were dealing with this in the lab, I'd just use a sonifier + solvents to clean the components. Wouldn't be worth the effort to clean tubing this way though (sonifiers usually aren't so large).

As for an effective long term biocide, look at sodium azide. It is not nice stuff to work with (wear gloves!) but it is packed along with dialysis tubing so that it can be stored moist (it cracks when it dries out) over many months. I cannot at this moment comment on its chemical activity but take a look at it.

H2O2 and bleach are both pretty potent oxidizers. You'll end up with a Cu(OH)2 layer on your block with these pretty quickly.

I'm just going to stick with the sanitizer I'm using now combined with glycol/hyperlube in a distilled base. Between all the poison I don't think anything can survive, and none of it will stain my tubing (the sanitizer is clear).

So you're going to leave the thin film residue in your loops?

lol

airspirt
did you miss my comments about Liquid Algae Destroyer ?

am cooking at 40C with your brew now
had a wb setup that is presumed 'dirty'
will clean per your procedure (but I did scrub the 2 one gal reservoirs, lots of scum from the Liquid Algae Destroyer)
then retest with the same mounting

No ... you guys are confusing two products I used.

I am running algae destroyer and sanitizer along with water now. Two different products. The algaecide will film, but I will be draining/flushing it prolly tomorrow in order to fill with the coolant I will be using. That stuff is gummy and white, kind of like Elmer's Glue.

The sanitizer I'm using is clear liquid and has the same consistency of water. It doesn't stain or film ... it is intended for use in hot tubs. That is the sanitizer I'll be using, not this gummy algaecide. The sanitizer won't leave any residue whatsoever.

Let me know how the *sol witches brew works for you, Bill. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how efficiently it "scrubs" your tubes clean.

good mix airsprit, gonna have to call you "*sol" now
4 hrs at 40C loosened it up and put it into solution

and the wb was fouled, as suspected from the coisistant gradual temp rise (0.08C per mounting)

what is the hot tub sanitizer you're using ?

It's a non-chlorine non-bromine mix ... it just came in a clear bottle almost like a sports drink. I'll try to give them a call later and see if there is a brand to it (they are prolly selling smaller quantities of a chemical they bought in bulk).

A little off topic, but may be useful to those with huge setups like airspirt. I have an aquatic turtle, and the water would always get nasty very quick (turtles are very dirty). This was with a decient filter. None of the water clearing chemicals or alge destroyer chemicals made a difference. In the end I bought a UV sterilizer (I'll post a link tomorrow when I'm at home), and now always have crystal clear water.

It's funny you mention that! I've been looking at a similar setup for mine, though it always comes down to one thing: how am I going to seal a UV light source in my res and NOT cause it to be just another heat load in my system? The only thought I had on that issue was to set it up inside of the cooling chest and have it shining on the internal tubing coming from the pump since it contains the entire slug of water for the entire system. The drawback there is that certain tubing (such as Tygon) doesn't allow UV to pass through, and I'm not too sure about clearflex 60. It may just end up being a spectacular waste of money if I was to install such a system.

Any input on that idea, though, would be welcome. I do not, however, think that I will have this problem again due to the chemicocktail I will be using as of tonight.

You need to think "solid" ;) you could probably fit a UV cross wise in your tower, with a clear acrylic tube.

The problem is finding the right UV tube.