and again, you are correct - most here understand just fine

ahem,
may I propose that Ben be the moderator ?
(and limit his moderation to the sunshine forum exclusively)

have the time between readings

Bill, you will always hold a special place in my heart, so I'm not going to moderate anything you say: you do well all on your own. ;) (exception: the name and e-mail, but I'll restore them, as I stated, if the problem still exists)

What we have really here, is one side of the story, taken public by Michael. Is it fact? I don't know.

Did Joe send the blocks? Did Michael receive them? Did they get lost? I don't know.

Did Michael e-mail LR, like he said he did, or is Joe right when he claims to not have received anything? I dunno.

I'll agree that the timing of the resolution stinks, but on a personal note, I've also corresponded with LR for the past few months, and all I can say is that it would be "out of character" for him to do what Michael claims that he did (i.e. being trolled).

We all hate trolls, I think that that's pretty clear. Some of us know what to do when we're being trolled, but it still stands that it has to be proved that "trolling" occured.

You're otherwise correct, in that all comments were based on the facts, as they were presented, but without the whole story, there's a lot of room for speculation, and I just know that it's going to lead to another flame thread, hence my comments, So I'll re-state:

please refrain from speculating as to what happened, and if I see any flaming going on, I'm locking this thread.

In the mean time, I'll extend an invitation to both Michael and Joe to PM or e-mail me with their version of the story. Obviously we have a resolution (at least apparently), but obviously something went bad in the deal, and if both parties want my help in closing this problem once and for all, I'll volunteer my time.

That’s right Bill A my thoughts were just that my thoughts base on deductive reasoning on what has been said. I only made suggestion to try to avoid this in the future but that is impossible. Maybe a rating system like *bay would help. As for Ben comment on this being between LiquidRulez and MichaelMuck that is true but why post in a forum like this if you don’t want others involved? Maybe next time the poster can post screen shots of the email, paypal you other proof

I agree, its all pHaestus' fault
jeez . . . .

Ok dammit back to plan 1:

http://www.eastcoastsurf.com/misc/reefcomp/index.html

(NWS perhaps but no blatant nudity)

to inspire sodomy
whee

Actually, I propose we start a subforum in FS/FT simply for reporting on people for better or worse. This would allow people to do a name search prior to a purchase to see if there were problems one way (seller) or another (buyer). Nobody wants to pay for a no-show product, and nobody wants to sell to a problem buyer. This, combined with rating systems at other sites that are frequented (oc-forums, ebay, etc) could help build credibility for a buyer. It could also become mandatory for a seller to make a post ON THEMSELVES prior to posting a FS with any prior references to ensure that there is a place for people to post about their experiences with them. Then Ben would have a place to play referee, people would have a place to police themselves, and we can all go back to looking at monstrous boobs in peace.

I don't think that is necessarily needed. Better to just use www.heatware.com for reference needs. We DO need a sticky in the FS/FT forum for traders to avoid. I guess that this is where things get sticky since in this case the issue was properly resolved. I personally wouldn't buy anything from LiquidRulez after reading this thread, but does Procooling open ourselves up to a frivolous lawsuit by naming him as a "bad trader" who should be avoided?

Maybe the easiest way to avoid any potential problems is to just have a sticky which links to all the threads where problems are reported?

That would work as well. The reason I thought a forum type system would work is because then people could make their own decisions on a situation. This one, for example, could lean either way so who are we to judge? Leave it to the consumer to moderate their own risks. A sticky would do the same thing, in the end.

" does Procooling open ourselves up to a frivolous lawsuit by naming him as a "bad trader" who should be avoided?"

What do you think?

You forgot the other partipants being open too.

This isnt going to go away....because I did NOTHING to deserve this slaughter and personal attack...
Nor do I DESERVE to have my personal information publically available in a forum that is supposed to be moderated by procooling for content before it ever hits a browser window on another persons computer.

And go Ahead Bill and make some more useful statements...Ive got the money, if you have the time.

Liquidrulez:

Please file the papers by all means if you feel that you have a case against me. Be sure to pick up form STFU while you are at the courthouse.

alas you are correct LiquidRulez
I don't have the time to even begin to help you,
nor am I inclined to do so given your unwillingness to accept responsibility for your actions

so you are going to sue Joe Kelly eh ?
-> for 'failure to moderate' ?
lol

Pretty pathetic guys. You have no evidence what-so-ever except some guy saying he got gipped. I can say that about any of you at anytime. Would you want your info immediatly spammed around because of it with no justification except the word of someone you know nothing about? Is this how this will be handled here? Guilty no matter what just because some guy says so?

LiquidRulzs was apart of this forum and looked up to by some of us. Pretty pathetic to just hang him without some digging first. I wouldn't come back here either after this show. I will never do any trading/buying/selling again here for sure. I hang myself enough as it is.

Thank you JD, that was my point exactly.

I, just like Bill, pHaestus and maybe JD, also received a PM from LiquidRulez, with his side of the story.

Having corresponded with LiquidRulez for the past few months, I tend to believe his side, but before I pass judgement, I'd still like to hear from Michael, who hasn't responded to my invitation.

I think that it's clear that this incident has upset a few of us, including me, and I'm going to advise all of us to apply some "understanding", as some words come out that may be presented in anger/frustration.


Bill: for some reason, you only seem to be able to add fuel to the fire, and I have yet to see you acknowledge that you don't know the details of the whole transaction. Obviously responsability has been taken, and there is a resolution (if Michael would confirm it), so unless you're talking about something else, I just don't get your last post. Frankly, I'm a little dissapointed, but I guess it goes both ways, right? ;) Otherwise, congratulations on hitting 900 posts...

jd
tighten your focus a bit
I'm getting ragged on because I put up his name and e-mail
you call this 'spamming' ? how about candor ?

is my name and e-mail a secret ?
get real, you seem to be defending him based on his word alone

look at what is known to be a fact:
- an agreement was reached between the 2 parties, a price fixed, and 50% pmt made
- after a period passed, with excuses for non/late delivery being made by the seller, the buyer was no longer able to get a response from the seller
- the seller had 'reasons' to 'explain' this lack of response
- the seller claims to have shipped the parts, the buyer claims to never have received anything
- and the buyer claims to not have received a request for the balance due, and obviously did not pay the balance due having - it is asserted - not received anything
- the seller returned the initial deposit

case closed one would think – except that the seller remains on the offensive ??

do you remember Chip Eckert ?
do you remember Una ?
a diddle by non-delivery is not acceptable

my suspicion is that the seller was ignoring a situation of his making,
and when shown up chose a good offense as the best defense

no Ben, I received no PM (sweeping the details under the rug ?)
ah, a secret defense to enlist supporters
I doubt your qualifications as an arbiter Ben, the ability to reason critically is crucial to such
-> an example of this deficit is the inability to understand my previous post - did you attempt to correlate it to that of the sellers ?

nope no PMs from anyone.

Anyone who sells things online to people they don't know gets insurance and delivery confirmation or else they run the risk of eating the cost of the stuff. That's just the etiquette of selling hardware in forums (and I would presume on ebay). If you are a small mfgr then ship with a method that has tracking. Pretty simple, really.

I think that that says it all, really. Thank you.


Bill: I'm not going to reveal what LR shared with me to you, unless he tells me it's OK. Suffice it to say that there's a lot more to the story than what has been presented here, and some of the "facts" may be "somewhat accurate", as presented by Michael.

Personally, I tend to give more credit to a story that presents both the negative and the positive aspects. I also do my best not to pass judgement until I've heard both sides of a story either, and unfortunately that usually involves a long series of back-and-forth exchanges of questions.

Trying to get your count up to 1'000 ?!?

Yes I am basing it on his word alone as I have e-mailed him and asked his side of the story and he gave it. I also have talked with him in these forums, my forums, and through e-mails before for a long time now. I have NO reason not to take his word for it. He is not interested in ripping someone off for $90 as that is a drop in the well for him. He got $1,000's just in equipment alone. He is not going to intentionally do anything to ruin his name around the web. From what he says and what I see in another thread here Michael is the majority of this whole problem. Ever get one of the customers that is just never satisfied no matter how much shit they drag you through?

Sure we might be making to big a deal about the name and e-mail as we can find that and more on the net, but you guys shouldn't be so quick to jump on someone over this and make a judgment instanlty that the complainer is 100% right and just. I hate getting ripped off as much as anyone as I just got ripped off on e-bay for a dead A7V333. Shit happens. Liquid got in a situation he regrets and has paid his dues and then some. We shouldn't be the judge, jury, and executioner with only a small percentage of evidence. Certainly shouldn't be passing around info. The guy abviously knows LiquidRulez name and e-mail addy as he claims to have all of LiquidRulez e-mails. Is there really a need for the rest of the world to?

Good thing the justice system doesn't work like this. We would have been fried by now. :D

K Bye then, thanks for stopping bye.... ass snacker ... we dont need Trolls here anyway. Bye now.

The justice system (small claims court) DOES work just like this jaydee. No judges like Ben in the real world (or small claims court would have a backlog of millennia). Here's how it would go in court (no lawyers most likely)

Michael Muck vs. Liquidrulez...you may be seated

judge: plaintiff could you tell me what happened quickly?

MM: I made arrangements to buy an item online. It was agreed that I would pay $45 up front and the remaning $45 when it was delivered. I never got my stuff after several months and I want my money back.

Judge: OK LR what's your side?

LR: I have composed a summary that I am going to pass to you in private summarizing my dealings with this guy, judge. It isn't for public consumption though.

Judge: Unacceptable. Did you ship the item?

LR: Of course I did

Judge: Where's the receipt and tracking info and proof?

LR: umm I don't have any

Judge: Judgement for the plaintiff for $45 next case.

hmm, I dont have anything else to add, I said my piece. I guess I can take a pic of my rig so people can see the blocks I have. You can check my heat and see that I havent sold any custom blocks. For awhile I thought he had forgotten because of the death in the family, but when he never ONCE replied to any of my email's or pm's?

LOL, whatever.

I would have to recommend everyone from this point not even think about buying/selling/trading on the internet from an individual. Not worth the BS that might come down on you.

As for Joe's comments that was more out of line than why I got banned! Interesting.

MichaelMuck,

You posted that you have retained e-mails that LiquidRulez sent you regarding this manner.

Could you please post those? That should PROVE where the truth is in this issue.

JayDee & Ben,

Does it not seem strange that what you regard as the best reasons to believe LiquidRulez are sent only to the two of you?

If his e-mails to you are so strongly compelling he would want them posted here to clear his name. On the other hand if he sees the chance to manipulate you to his advantage, would this not be best done in private?

Conmen, which is really what trolls are, are extremely talanted in persuading others to believe in them. And thier storys seem to be the truth, except they can never be proven. The cons best story is often equally hard to DISPROVE, they are that way by design. Last a good conman is quick to defend himself by attacking his victom. This often wins them support.

I can only repeat, MichealMuck, PLEASE POST THOSE SAVED E-MAILS! ! Those e-mails may prove your case.

BillA & pH

Very good job regarding the troll issue.

pH,

Your babe page needs some work, those wouldn't compell very many for very long. You'll need at least Playboy level material if this forum is to work. But a good first effort.;)

that's bs jaydee. How about:

If dealing with someone you do not know or trust (trust to me comes from heatware.com and ebay resellerratings) then:

(a) demand payment before shipping
(b) pay the extra dollar for delivery confirmation if shipping USPS or ship it UPS or fedex where there is tracking.

Not rocket science. I have been trading for years online and the only times I have been burned are when I neglected these rules.

A valid point JayDee, anyone trading on line should use eXtreme care when dealing with individuals instead of companys.

And if shipping a item to a individual always keep proof and pay for tracking on those goods.

This is how I have always done it aswell. Still suggest not bothering dealing with anyone. People have to much power, obviously, to just say "I got trolled by so and so" and everyone immediately jump on the bandwagon slamming away. That is BS pH.
First it should go through other channels before it gets publicly dumped on the forum. If the guy is going to claim someone is a troll then they should submit the evidence to the admin or mod or whomever. Then an attempt to contact the other half of the story should be made. If it doesn't get resolved then it should be allowed to go public where other members may have some info that could be useful such as BillA's e-mail and name. Otherwise your just opening up an avenue for anyone disgruntled with someone to say they are a troll and got ripped off even if no such event ever took place.

jd
do re-read the first page of this thread

the buyer was unable to elicit a response from the seller
I believe that had the seller's name and e-mail not have been posted, this thread would be just another lament

"people have too much power" ?
as in the right to complain about a non-delivering vendor ?
get a grip, cheat someone -> expect heat

now you think this is a total fabrication by the buyer ?
jeez, this thing is sprouting new heads

again:
jd - do you remember Una ?

Had liquidrulez responded with a tracking number or a receipt or slip from delivery confirmation then certainly I would have apologized. Instead we get a bunch of private statements to Jaydee and Ben and public chest beating (sue Procooling? haha).

was just replying to a slam on the readers of my site. on your site you can do the same :)

Do I think the guy just made it up? How the hell do I know with what is said here. I see this shit all the time, sometimes they do just make it up!!!! Thats why I sent an e-mail to LiquidRulez asking what the deal is because I have found him good on his word in the past. Did something really go wrong from what I read in the e-mail? Yes. Did LiquidRulez make and ship the original blocks? IMO yes. Did the guy get them? IMO No. So now LiquidRulez is out the cost of time and materials for the block and his rep tarnished. Michaeal got his $45 back even though it was more than used with the materials. Should there have been dilivery confirmation and a tracking # applied by Liquid with the information filed for future reference? Yes. Did it happen? no.

Did Michael really send all these e-mails and PM's? Well we havn't seen any evidence to support that as Liquid says he got nothing.

This whole situation is suggestion there is a lot left out of what has been presented. Oh well. Mike got his money back. Liquid learned to keep better information. We all learned what to and not to do.


Actually I do not know what went on with Una unregistered.



Now let's see if I can squeez $45 out of someone, for no reason this time, because we see what can be done here with this public "pressure" tactic and no one questions my post because we just assume I didn't make it up just because.....Even being I didn't show a shread of evidence to back myself up.