Hmmm......I thought I just said I did that....jees....you are grumpy LOL :D

EDIT: Igotta admit I took the easy way out and used AMTD...and yes it does throw the calc off somewhat.

Heh heh... If I knew how to do any of that, I wouldn't be lurking here trying to pick up knowledge through osmosis! I just write code and poetry, this physical sciences stuff is all new to me. Even my thought experiment is more of a philosophical argument, a thinly veiled Socratic monologue (not a dialog as nobody commented on it). Maybe I should buy a book. Any recommendations?

i wish i could calculated "the Log Mean Temperature Difference (LMTD)" :confused: of all this stuff. then i wouldnt be learning this with the trial and error method. i also wouldnt be asking the questions here, id be answering them ;)

google is your friend
then start looking up every word in the definition of LMTD which is not clear
a bit tougher than being spoon fed, but it works

:cry: baby wanna be fed :cry:

good point BillA...

i just wish i had this hobby when i was in collage (soooo many years ago) i might have payed (more) attention in math/physics class then...(note to all the young'ens out there!)

guess ill be testing the "you cant teach an old dog new tricks" theory next :rolleyes:

lol, little sympathy here Joe,
I'm 58 and 4 years ago had never heard of WCing a computer;
all depends on the extent of one's interest

You're not often blatantly wrong Bill, but this time you are. If it all depended purely on one's interest, Ben would be king of the watercoolers. Much like you need a good pump, block, and radiator to create a good system (as opposed to one item being crap and trashing the entire thing), it takes both interest and ability. A good engineering education can serve as an immense leg up on the matter, but without ability you'd be hopelessly lost.

w00t!! i made ol' grumpy LOL! even if the 2 loop dosnt work, it was worth it for that!

parts update: the poly-top WW is soon to be replaced with a Cascade! :cool:
so ill do a "real life" WW vs Cascade, then the 2 loop vs one. and ill post my (not so scientific) results here (too).

PS i thought i'd get A LOT more :evilaugh: than i did. guess y'all arnt that bad here :dome:

thanks for the input

oooof, gut shot
the oldest trap, assuming that others are the same/similar
no argument; certain specific abilities are required to become a practitioner,
lesser obviously to come to a basic understanding - but still not for deadheads
(I should be more mindful of 'ability' given some huge difficulties in 'explaining how to interpret a graph')

but Dave, also of consideration is motivation
I'm operating under the assumption that I will have more success by pushing people towards the sources of info, rather than by telling them how difficult the subject matter may (will !) be

I would emphasize your statement as follows:
"A good engineering education can serve as an immense leg up on the matter, but without ability you'd be hopelessly lost."

Sweet, but the side swipe at Ben?
Bill I respect.
Ben comes across as a genuine person,who bows to reasoned argument with grace.

Les,
I think Ben was cited merely as an example where great interest was/is limited by his education/ability. (specifically which was not specified)
Ben's achievements have always been constrained by his understanding, he is improving - but his lack of a sound technical education slows his progress.

The point I would make is that it should not be necessary to argue with Ben.

Point accepted.
However, why not use
http://my.coolingzone.com/#/forums/wwwthreads.pl .

My apologies if it offends Ben, as that was not the intent. Bill has deduced my meaning. Ben has more enthusiasm than anyone else I know and has progressed mightily from his first days here. Had his education centered on engineering, much of his struggles would not have occured. His learning watercooling technology is akin to me learning Spanish. I have no gift for foreign language, but my wife has a degree in Spanish and my three year old can converse reasonably well in either language (running circles around my understanding). I am getting better, but can not pick it up with near the speed of my daughter.

ahhh now thats more what i expected here @ pro (flame) cooling!


yo BillA, sup with the "deadhead" comment? (some reference to the pic of me wearing a "dead" Tshirt?)


how the hell does all this "ripping" on each other help us (me) learn about water cooling?

im not here to prove how smart (or dumb) i am!!
im here to learn from those who know (more) and pass on what i "know" to those who know less.

you can take all these "gut shots" and shove it up your 1/2" ID hoses! ...flame on...

Joe Camel
Many of us have posted data or theoretical considerations.
Suggest a search of posts by Les,myv56,and unregisted may help.

Then shut up, start reading threads and learn something. :p

i have read. i have learned. i will continue to read. i will continue to learn.

i come here with an open mind. i dont spew my theories as law. i dont flame those who are (actually) trying to learn things. im not asking to be spoon fed. im asking for some guidance.

Punching you child for doing something wrong dosnt accomplish one thing. explaining to them what and why it was wrong and why they might want to do something different next time "might".

after reading (and learning) your 11 page thread,(http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=6385) i can say 1 thing: we ALL seem to be learning. every theory seems to have an exception and every setup is different. with this in mind and the fact that my "dead"head dosnt like math, i guess ill stick to the trial and error method.


its REALLY too bad a (hopefully) troll like Graystar gets 3 pages of y'all bending over backward to try and help, and i get told: "shut up, start reading threads and learn something" :(


oooof, "head" shot :p

Don't take it to heart Joe_Camel. The guys here really are helpful. You just have to show that you're willing to spend some effort. They'll rarely spoon feed anyone, which I typically attribute to the style of education that occurs at University. Being spoon-fed is easy and lecturers always held a certain amount of contempt for students who were merely sponges. The interesting students were the ones who go out of their way to investigate something, to show independent and inspirative thought. Don't be disheartened though, there's a lot to read and take in.

Sadly Graystar had a number of us fooled for a while there. He looked like someone who was capable of independent thought, but it merely turned out to be an illusion.

i might like this place
 

sweet....Cathar typed my name.....and billA has responded to me too...im so :D

i was really just putting the guilt (flame) on y'all with that last post :p
(oooof, "head" shot)


dont worry Cathar, im bound and determined to test this theory out. (im 1/2 way there)

like i said we all seem to be learning, so ill check this theory out and see if there are any exceptions to be found.

feel free to add some guidance. (like: other than my MBM temp readout, i dont have any way to check temps...(add helpful hint here)


i hope i passed the audition :dome:

Where did you get that cascade!!!

id rather keep that "hush hush" till i get it in my hot little hands. dont really want y'all out "bidding" me. (no, not e(BS)bay)



side note:
this whole concept of diminishing returns from added pump heat has (in my mind) an interesting parallel. anyone who mods/OCs cars (only) would think we were talking about boost (turbo/superchargers). where if you put TOO much pressure (and heat from the "pump") you get something called Knock (a pre ignition in the chamber due to heat/pressure) now honestly, i "know" almost as little about cars as i do WC so i may (will) be a little off, but i think youll get the idea. now the car industry has solved this with: knock retard (changing the timing), lower boost, and or Intercoolers (which are A LOT like our cooling loops but with 2 rads vs WB & rad) i dont know how this will help, but i like to "see" how a problem was "solved" in situations that are very different but have a common "core" ...
ya, i have a car with a suercharger. and ya, ive moded it :cool:

now, back to dual loops & pumps...

Well, now you're getting a bit off topic, but I'll toss a couple of considerations out on air as it relates to engines. I'm guessing you know pretty much all that follows, but somebody may pick up something of interest.

When you compress air, the temperature of the air increases. An intercooler merely cools that "heat of compression", thus increasing its density. Higher density means more mass per volume. Since combustion relies on a chemical reaction between fuel and air, more mass means more combustion/power.

A piston also compresses the vapor in the cylinder. In a normal engine, the air enters the cylinder under atmospheric pressure. Add a turbocharger and more air will enter, as the air is compressed to higher than atmospheric pressure. Add an intercooler and even more air mass will enter the cylinder. The turbo and intercooler affect the overall compression ratio by feeding the cylinder air of a higher density than ambient atmospheric air.

Some folks not knowing any better will add a turbo (with or without intercooler) to their engine to develop more power. One problem is that this changes the engine's overall compression ratio and the compression of the turbo gets multiplied by the compression of the piston. As you've noted, this can create pre-ignition and places a heckuva lot more stress on the engine components. Hence the need to beef up crank components and often increase the combustion volume (shorter stroke, etc.).

Anyway, the intercooler works because the "hot" air it sees has been compressed by a turbocharger and it can use ambient air to cool it. The analogy with water cooling is to have sufficient radiator area and air flow to cool the fluid as close to ambient as possible. Locating the radiator immediately ahead of the block theoretically gives the coolest possible fluid to the chip, but often this is not how things really pan out. The real key is providing the coolest air possible to the radiator and keeping the fluid runs reasonably straight and short. Putting the radiator right ahead of the chip is no good if that means passing warm case air over it.

It isn't quite the same as an intercooler, either, as at any reasonable flow rate the temperature of fluid in the loop just doesn't change much. At 50 gph, water can absorb over 150 watts with less than 1°C temperature rise. Changes like that are quite small compared to the delta_T you'll often find between ambient air and the air inside a case.

man-o-man. another 8.5 hours of reading today... my head is really swimming.

ive got to say this was more "fun" when (i thought) i knew what i was talking about... i hope it will become "fun" again after (if) i do.

its a little frustrating to read the same things over and over (said in slightly different ways) and still not be able to SEE IT! (must be frustrating to have to try to come up with different ways to say the same thing over and over... much sympathy: billA, Cathar, pHaestus, 8-ball, Since87, Les, etc)

i know the concept is within my "ability" to grasp (dead head or not) but the math behind what is happening seems to be out of (my) reach.


can someone suggest a thread or a page or a book where i can SEE the actual calculation (with real numbers NOT variables) of a working loop? maybe if i SEE an example i can "reverse engineer" an understanding.

NEVER MIND! i dove into "Water Cooling Simulator Discussion" and i think ill just stick to the bliss of ignorance.
y'all are sooo far ahead of me i couldnt catch up if my life depended on it. trial and error is what ive got to work with, period.


i didnt really want to jack this thread and make it the "help Joe Camel see" thread, but i guess i already did... flame off...

PS GOOD LUCK with that simulator (youve come a LONG way, my hats off to ya!!)

.

Here is what i got on my computer now

https://home.comcast.net/~maximilium...mages/0102.gif


https://home.comcast.net/~maximilium...es/newpump.JPG

schweeeet!
 

:drool:

good temps? (4 rads...wow)

can we see the whole thing?

EDIT: to see whole thing click the link (duh)
2nd EDIT: cant "see" the rads. where did you hide them?

here is how it looks, i just finish this weekend with this project.


https://home.comcast.net/~maximilium...ges/inside.jpg


About the temperatures:

First read this
Official update for the P4 motherboards temp issue
IC7 MAX3 Temerature survey

My Motherboard temperatures so far with sys @23c on idle are 34c, at full idle they get around 40C. Abit P4 Motherboard temperatures are not "actual temps", they are calculated and the end result is 8C to 10C above the real temperature.

whelp, its time for an update:

ive changed my 2 loop into a 1 loop.
here is a pic of the 2 loop box:

OLD:

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/2593/2loopOLD3.jpg

NEW:

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/4138/2loopNEW1.jpg

so i took out the Little giant and the res. so i now have:
1x Mag3,
2x rads (parallel),
1x WW,
1x T,
back to pump.

guess what...

1) i cant keep the same OC (had to lower to 220x11 to be stable)

2) @ this lower OC, my temps are 7C HIGHER (10 hour ceramique TIM)

ive remounted the WB 3 times and have the same results.

needless to say, i will be going back to a 2loop.

Your next step is to upgrade to some serious fannage. ;) Think "blower"...

next updates will be; back to 2 loops with: Cascade (5/8" barbs), 4x Torin blowers (@24V), DD's D4 pump (@16V), 2 new BIGGER rads (5/8" barbs)...;) (all shipping now)

Yeah baby! :D