While the modify sine wave looks “bad” it really isn’t. That modified sine wave in some cases is better then what comes out of the wall in some parts of the country. I am not defending DD advertising just pointing out some facts.

I'm not 100% which one is better yet. I havent posted all the performance variables. It will all be in the review. But basically, the RBX with the #4 jet is VERY restrictive. When I cut the flow back, both the Cascade and the RBX go to 38c.

If I was to use the #2 jet, Im sure that the flow would be pretty similar, and the Cascade would pull just slightly ahead. The temperatures are so close tho, its near the tolerance of error. There might not be a clear winner at this wattage level (about 95w).

At default XP2400+ speeds, the Cascade performs better, 32c versus 33c. Yes, its confusing, im working on it.

That's unfortunate.

This reminds me of Neomoses mini channel block with the adjustable nozzel aswell.

Player0: May i suggest that you make a max overclock with both of them?
To see wich one reaches the highest stable overclock?

With regards to the interchangeable nozzles. Bill, and I'm sure quite a few others, will remember back to the very first White Water prototype that had drop in interchangeable nozzles, albeit in a somewhat more primitive form, but they existed nonetheless, being plastic inserts that sat underneath the central barb.

I had experimented with different nozzles widths, multiple jet points, parallel nozzle slits, etc, etc.

Thing is, it was an experimental tool in order to determine the better "middle ground" across a range of scenarios.

Still, nice to see that something that was done 15 months ago is now someone else's "new and original" idea.

Looks good.

Well done Dangerden. At the end of the day, all waterblocks will have fine channels, intricate paths. Even Swiftech will have them sooner or later.

Here is Neomoses. http://www.logiccooling.com/index.htm

The jet in ther middle is adjustable. It is made of 2 peices of metal that slide together or away from each other.

Makes one wonder why bother sharing block idea's.

More marketing. Only one of the nozzles comes with the block. You can buy other$$$

What do you want to bet, the stock nozzle plate doesn't perform as well as one of the others in a typical system? More $$$ for DD when people buy the optimal nozzle plate.

I think it's unfortunate that DD didn't at least tip the hat to Cathar's design in their description. The design is in public domain already so it wouldn't have cost them anything. It goes back to the idea of properly citing scientific research in my mind. And while now waterpimp acts like the design was all engineering and thinking, this thread:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=7112

suggests that a ww clone was the starting point.

Having said that, the block looks nicely made and I have always had good luck with Dangerden products. I am glad to see a low cost, high performance wb (assuming they stick to their traditional $40 price point).

Also I would guess cloning the whitewater is a reasonable strategy for designers seeking to make a better-performing block. And if that clone performs better than their current production block then why not switch?

Danger Den is gonna do what they are gonna do as always. Things like this really benefit no one in my mind. Take Cathar, he comes up with the WW that pushes water blocks to a new level. The design as far as WB's go was unique, fine channels, nozzle plate, 3 barbs etc. When people blatently copy designs, it does not benefit the WC'ing community one bit. What are we getting with the RBX? A rehashed WW. Let's see something NEW AND DIFFERENT for christ's sake.

LOL.. this dd sounds different from the ww. In fact the numbers make it so. You guys forgot that Cathar was selling these. Its not the watercooling community that is mass making blocks... so don't lump all these guys in a common thread. He has now moved on to a different product which people WILL COPY and improve on over time.
Cathar made his chunk, now other people are improving upon a design and marketing it. Every product has a life cycle before someone else modifies it or changes it for their needs. Behold Captiolism! I dare say this is NEW and different. Just like every heat sink you have on the market out there is NEW and DIFFERENT when they paint it a different color or exchange fans. Or simply adjust the fins one way or another.. same basic everything, no one is crucifiying them for doing what they have for YEARS. Im sure this same conversation went on 3-4 years ago in the heatsink forums.
If people think that watercooling is exempt from basic marketing and selling tactics then I suggest people study a wee bit harder.

The benifit: better performance, lower prices, more distribution. Companies are getting wealthier by meeting customers demands.

but did waterpimp sell the design or get money from DD? because in that case it would be pretty low after admiting "This is basically a White Water clone"

Have a look here, more pics : http://www.themodfathers.com/reviews/dd_rbx.php

yet another fatuous remark from the guys w/o ethics

http://thermal-management-testing.co...mondmatrix.jpg

but you never have done so, have you

Didnt they have pins on the bluecooling stuff on hardocp? Basically, Bill you are telling us that swiftech was the 1st to use pins?? Wow.. I had no idea! I thought hoot also had them out before swiftech. Then that.. makes.. swiftech immoral?

Yup, I bet now that Bill is in swiftech we will never see another block that uses an already seen style. Thats going to be a fun one to see.

from that review:
"Through testing it has been found that your base can never be too thin."

the proclamation of ignorance, lol
this is true only under some circumstances, and not so for others

"The idea for nozzelling was first floated on the net in an article by BillA. He indicated that if you could find a nozzle pattern and velocity to best suit your individual setup and block furniture then you would be able to gain improved cooling."

huh ? (credit given where none was due ??)
guess I've now written so much I'm forgetting it
anyone got a link to that old article ?

not really a bad 'product review', as such things go
(but I prefer comprehensive testing instead)

and certainly agree that most designs are evolutionary,
but still would have liked to see a 'tip of the hat' to Cathar

winewood
try to think before writing
go read the thread on Hoot's wb
did he make the bp that he used ?

The real question that goes back to your former comment.. did swiftech come up with fins? Who did? Who was the first to use the pins.. thats the real question. Does swiftech 'who is beyond reproof from bill' give "credit" to anyone for any steps gained from outside its walls? When was the model from that picture taken bill?.. or should I say "o ethical moral compass".
I think that the following is a fair statement. Expect attacks from bill if you block may perform better than swiftech. Is there any reason why you make war on anything non-swiftech? I certainly don't see any company on any moral high road. And this doesn't exclude swiftech because you have elevated them with your presence o mighty attack dog.

I was close... Looks like it will be $52.95. That is a very impressive price....

Thats awsome considering the ww was selling around $100 US at one time.. (wasnt it? :shrug: ) I love DDen, those guys have great service and are very competitive. This just shows they are not going anywhere but up.

winewood
go ahead and use quotes where I have attacked another mfgrs wb

when you make (repeated) assertions that are not true you devalue all else that you say as well

what I do criticize is dishonesty and half truths (on this forum and OCers only)
and if you wish to disagree with that, fine

now, what was that you said about Hoot's wb ?
"I thought hoot also had them out before swiftech."
true ?
no
"Then that.. makes.. swiftech immoral?"
no, just displays your agenda
you state untruths to try to make your 'point';
a false statement is a lie,
ergo, you are a liar

NOW go and read the thread on Hoot's wb
THEN be honest enough to admit your assertion was false
OR just keep stirring the sh*t
grow up

Winewood:

You are full of shit.

Read here:

http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/

Check Bill's OWN testing. Note the Swiftech blocks are decidedly middle of the pack. Now note that no one has been attacked based on block performance but rather on unsubstantiated claims and shady marketing practices. These are the things that SHOULD get one attacked. I am well aware of your relationship with bluecooling/aquajoe; it's clear from your post history. So please don't throw stones regarding bias.

Re: Pin blocks
A german mfgr had a similar design (with lexan top) long before bluecooling or Swiftech. And really #rotor's design is a pin block as well. And the swiftech block was to market before any of your stuff as I recall. The original MC5000 has been for sale for some time now (6months+?)

BTW, this ISNT the tread for your bitching and moaning about swiftech or aquajoe (ALL of you). Confine it to your own threads. Keep it up all across the forums and I'll delete all the offending posts and give you guys a one week ban.

I know from personally speaking with Gabe at SwiftTech that they had experimented with 'pin' like designs on the bases of their waterblocks back when they first came out with their socket line of heatsinks, but the performance was never there so they were released with flat bases. I ended up drilling divots in my base and it did improve performance on those old blocks though (MCW370 and up). I think that people were encasing heatsinks in lexan and throwing water through them long before any blocks of this design were mass produced by any watercooling company though. Of course, when you have a small copper slab, there are only so many different ways you can drill/mill it, so designer toes are going to get stepped on.

I dont want to get in to the who invented what arguement. I still say its more like the Cascade than the WhiteWater, but just because of the jetting thing. The RBX outperforms the WhiteWater though, so if there are any bits of it copied, they also improved some things.

My biggest concern is that the RBX is going to put a dent in Cathars business. I mean, they can make it cheaper, and it works close to Cascade levels. Im sure Cathar has some other ideas floating around, but theres no mistaking that watercooling is becoming big business, and patents are going to become more and more important. Was the water jet idea patented? Anyway, I hope that Cathar will continue to come up with new ideas, and not be swayed by the larger manufacturers who can really run with the idea. I know he tried to market the White Water through Dtek but... i dont know what happened there.

I dont really want to get pulled in to an almost certain flame war, so I'm pulling out ;)

no big flame thing

designs are evolutionary, its the nature of the beast
it is not so difficult to improve an existing design,
what is much more difficult is to implement a novel design
- and even so the antecedents are still visible

this DD variant, like the one from neomoses, has promise wrt system optimization,
but will present certain difficulties to users;
how (well) will they be able to select the optimum nozzle for their particular setup ?

the nozzle feature makes system testing of the wb extremely difficult to intrepret unless one has an almost identical system
- and bench testing is little better as virtually no users have much knowledge of their system resistance

I would predict results 'all over the map' on a comparative basis
and would like to play with one myself, lol

Just more evidence to the stack that anyone can write articles for a website. :rolleyes:

Your results are considerably different than others and very suspect, your showing your bias just by jumping in on this thread and defending this block, you don't know the D-Tek deal with Cathar? (the white water is selling well all over the world!), you still havn't given your testing bed specs or answered other questions, your testing results are rediculous, to much of the word "about" from someone who is supposed to be a tester, etc....


Your results will automatically be dismissed. if you want to keep credibility at least try and not look biased towards the stuff you review. :rolleyes:

Will be interested to see the results of this block by ligitimate testers. Yeah I know, good luck there.....

To be honest this is the first block in a long time (after cascade) that i would like to see properly tested.

It does LOOK like a winner:

I think DangerDen is shipping the block with the 'middle-of-the-road' jet. #2 or #4 I beleive. I think the interchangable jets will only be for people who want to play around, and dont mind taking it apart a few times. If they see a 1-2c difference with #2 over #3, then it could be good. I haven't played with all the jets yet. Im going to test one more jet for the review. Changing jets isnt going to be for most people. But like a carburator on an engine, it only comes roughly tuned. The adjusment of the jets lets a user fine tune his system, depending on things like flow/head. My system has a lot of flow, which is why the cascade works well, and the smaller jet on the RBX is doing well.

But thats exactly the reason I said the Cascade still might be a little better, because on lower flow, the Cascade is doing better. It's always going to boil down to each users system. But I think that where the Cascade does well, the RBX will do well too.

I havent read any testing on the MCW5002, but while you're here Bill, I didn't get great numbers on it. It just doesn't mount tight to my Athlon. I followed the instructions to the letter, and I remounted it like half a dozen times. Im sure that it would work SO much better on a P4 or AMD64 where most mounting works, but the socket mounting system just doesnt seem to work well enough. Have you guys found the same thing? It actually tests worse than my Maze4.

What country are you talking about? Iraq?

Have you got proof to back up that statement? That waveform has a huge amount of harmonic distortion compared to anything anyone is likely to receive as residential service from an electrical utility in the US.

Although I couldn't find anything authoritative via Google, the general consensus was that a modified sinewave would result in a 20% increase in heat generation in typical motors. Magnetic drive pumps, being much more inductive than typical motor applications, may be much more severely impacted.

Another issue, which hadn't occurred to me earlier, is the magnetic field emitted by the pump, which can affect CRT's. The emitted field would be much nastier with a modified sinewave.

Just more evidence to the stack that anyone can write articles for a website. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know, Im such a newbie water cooler. See? Look at the trouble I got in simply because DangerDen sends me a new block. Maybe I should just test the old ones from now on.

Your results are considerably different than others and very suspect, your showing your bias just by jumping in on this thread and defending this block,

Um, okay? Who else has reviewed the RBX? What results are different than others? The only review Ive seen is on Modfathers, and it worked well for them too. Bill, I hope you test this block soon, I know you'll like it, they won't listen to me apparantly.

you don't know the D-Tek deal with Cathar? (the white water is selling well all over the world!), you still havn't given your testing bed specs or answered other questions, your testing results are rediculous, to much of the word "about" from someone who is supposed to be a tester, etc....

I posted information right on this thread. What, do you want me to cut and paste the review right here? I havent finished testing, and I'm trying to take in information here for consideration when I do release the review. Why do you think I am here, to enjoy the bashing? No, I want to see what the questions and concerns about the blocks are, and maybe I can address these in my testing.

Your results will automatically be dismissed. if you want to keep credibility at least try and not look biased towards the stuff you review. :rolleyes:

Im already dismissed with many readers at this point. I dont know how I'm biased. I tested the damn block and posted my numbers. I've always been labeled a SwiftTech bias because they always tested well for me. I guess I'm just biased about the blocks that perform best. Well gee.

Will be interested to see the results of this block by ligitimate testers. Yeah I know, good luck there.....

I guess you think it's easy. Why don't you start writing. After all, I guess anyone can write reviews for a website these days.

And from THIS thread:
Hmm, you say it performs better than a WW but then you state you couldn't get a WW? Did you eventually get a WW but it just won't make the review?

If you hadn't noticed, the review isn't posted. If someone wants to ship me a White Water for comparison, then they can go right ahead. I already spent $400 for this review, and I'm not interested in investing anymore money in to a White Water.

My basis for saying the RBX is better than the White Water is because the Cascade is better than the White Water. If the RBX and Cascade are almost equal, than I assume it say that the RBX is thusly better than the White Water.

But that assertion is based on logic, and not on raw testing. DTek didn't want to send me a block for testing though.