I have made a couple of graphs of how the heat flux has increased with clock speed for AMD and Intel chips using information from Tom's Hardware and Overclockers.com
They are too big to attach though so if anyone is interested let me know

Interested: Please give us a link if you can...

sorry I have no way of hosting the pics I could send you the excel file if you want or just the jpegs of the graphs

here's one

and the other (managed to make them small enough)

They are a bit simpified I know I'm just using them to show the trend of how things are changing

Bill Adams can be described, and with language that should pass the filters.

Bill, IMO, can be described as focused, intense (perhaps even driven), and goal oriented. And his goal is accuracy, and he is continually working towards ever greater accuracy by demanding of himself ever greater precesion in every single test he runs & measurment he takes. Errors are to be eliminated ruthlessly, and those who would push error ridden "reviews" or pose as experts, but spew BS on the public stand in the way of what I believe Bill wants to see come of his efforts. And for sure this leads to Bill having a short fuse with some of those spewing BS, sometimes extremely short fused.

He wants honest & accurate testing to take the place of all the BS reviews we have now. Right now you can count the number of real bench testers on one hand. Now that is sad, and needs correction.

I've seen Bill many times help a poster who is ignorant on the topic of water cooling. God knows I sure was when first I came here. Bill can in fact be a pretty good teacher, when he has a student that is interested more in learning than spouting out BS. Bill's BS detector is a rather quick reaction factor in all this. And Bill is sure enough outspoken when he's calling someone on posting what is BS.

Jaydee has a even faster reaction factor at times. To many noobs at one time, or worse perhaps, the Player0's, seem to be regarded as a curse on all he finds worthwhile in this hobby.

And sometimes the flustration of the whole thing gets to them both and they may use a verbal fire storm where perhaps a word of repeated correction would have served better.

What I find rather amazing is that pH very seldom lets loose, as he did a few posts back regarding your attacks.

Those who are into bench testing Winewood don't do it for the money. They spend more in TIME and money than they are ever compensated for. And that includes Bill as well as pH & JoeC. Bill has spent far more of his money, and his TIME than he's likely to recoup for several more years, if ever. JoeC is the only one I think may be covering his expenses with enough left over to compensate him at all well for his effort, and only due to his running a major web site for this hobby.

And Winewood, the very reason Bill no longer tests for a range of companys & individuals isn't due to his being biased, it's due to his knowing many would have that perception, regardless what his findings were.

The saddest part of your above post is that at the end, you show that YOU would do what you accuse Bill wrongly of. I think that yourself and JoeMac need to step back and reconsider what you are typing before you post some of it. It seems to me that what is coming ever more clear is that you both attack Bill for what you KNOW you'd be doing in his place, not for anything he's actually done.

And while you claim Bill should be attacking Swiftech in public to keep his unbiased position in YOUR eyes, only a fool would do as you suggest. And Bill isn't a fool. Don't you think that some of the new items Swiftech is coming out with shows his influance? And I suspect his influance there started sometime prior to his being employed there. Look at the new MCW5002 block, note it's lowered top, for greater turbulence and water velocity. I seem to recall seeing a modded Swiftech block over a year ago that Bill did, and tested in one of his articles at OverClockers. Not a surprise Swiftech acted on the ideas put forward. And is not the 600 series pump, the very poster child for the sort of pump Bill has promoted for a long time now? ONly a idiot attacks his employer in public, that is not the way to effect change. You effect change from within a company, by advancing your ideas, to improve what may well be wrong with the companys operations or products. And every valued contribution you make, paves the way for further chances to advance your ideas for making both the company and it's product better. Bill hasn't been at Swiftech long enough to effect sweeping change, you can't drop whole product lines without having new products researched and ready to replace them. And yes, even Bill needs a good bit of time to do those things. Wait and see what other changes in Swiftech's murchandise comes about in the next year. I expect to see a number of changes happen, for both the company's and our (consumers) benifit.

One last thought for you Winewood and JoeMac, as you seem to have decided that it's time for the sh!t to hit the fan, you really should have noted that you were standing in front of the fan, prior to shoveling in sh!t.:eek: :shrug: :eek: :evilaugh:

Originally posted Blackeagle
And Winewood, the very reason Bill no longer tests for a range of companys & individuals isn't due to his being biased, it's due to his knowing many would have that perception, regardless what his findings were.

Blackeagle lets think about this for a minute in a different industry. Ok let take the car industry when was the last time you saw a G.M tester test a ford car and then publish an article on how well it performed? What’s that you haven’t? Bill was a neutral party a sort of car and driver magazine type. Now let’s say G.M bought car and driver do you think they would still be perceived as unbiased? Do you think others would regardless of what the magazine findings were?

Originally posted Blackeagle
The saddest part of your above post is that at the end, you show that YOU would do what you accuse Bill wrongly of. I think that yourself and JoeMac need to step back and reconsider what you are typing before you post some of it. It seems to me that what is coming ever more clear is that you both attack Bill for what you KNOW you'd be doing in his place, not for anything he's actually done.

Now I can’t talk for winewood but I only state what is obvious.

Originally posted Blackeagle

And while you claim Bill should be attacking Swiftech in public to keep his unbiased position in YOUR eyes, only a fool would do as you suggest. And Bill isn't a fool. Don't you think that some of the new items Swiftech is coming out with shows his influance? And I suspect his influance there started sometime prior to his being employed there. Look at the new MCW5002 block, note it's lowered top, for greater turbulence and water velocity. I seem to recall seeing a modded Swiftech block over a year ago that Bill did, and tested in one of his articles at OverClockers. Not a surprise Swiftech acted on the ideas put forward. And is not the 600 series pump, the very poster child for the sort of pump Bill has promoted for a long time now?

I agree only a fool would think that someone would remain unbiased when their company finances are at stake. You even make my point. “Don't you think that some of the new items Swiftech is coming out with shows his influance?” now don’t you think that swiftech would also influence bill?

Originally posted Blackeagle
One last thought for you Winewood and JoeMac, as you seem to have decided that it's time for the sh!t to hit the fan, you really should have noted that you were standing in front of the fan, prior to shoveling in sh!t.

Really? Did I ever question Bills goal to obtain accuracy? No. Did I question bills moral like he questioned mine? No. You must not realize that Bill tested a block for us and that we used his finding to make the aquajoe bock. Did his test improve our design? Yes. Does Bill question the performance of our block? Not that I have seen. What he does question is the way some results are obtained and so do I why? Way too many variables.

This is not a personal attack this is my response to the statement
“ I am an engineer, and the facts are the facts
I do not misrepresent, twist words, or shade meanings”

I presented a compelling argument that, while a person may be an engineer it does not necessarily mean that the facts are not twisted even though they may still be facts. It just so happened that Bill was the one that said (typed) that, had it been anyone else I would have presented him with the same argument.

Its nice to see that Bill is helping JoeC with his test bench. JoeC is from most ways of looking at this independent. Blackeagle I want the same thing that most in this hobby want –and- what could that be? A fair and accepted method of testing performed by independent sources. While you may think of me as just another manufacture the truth is that this is just a hobby for TKC and myself. Does this mean if you purchased a block from us that it will be of low quality? No. Does this mean that we want to sell something to a fellow hobbyist that does not perform? No. Do I own other blocks? Yes In fact I own 5 or 6 different blocks – why do you think I went off and had my own built. What happen is we went out caught the Big Boys attention and they try to pound us for it nothing more nothing less. Let me ask you have you been to www.aquajoe.com have you noticed how low our prices are? Why are they so low? Because we want to push this hobby.Is it rewarding? Yes I would not do it if I did not enjoy pushing hardware to the limit. :D

Perhaps you chose a bad example in the car industry?

http://www.jeep.com/trailrated/index...e&type=mainImg

Joemac,

Did you question BillA's accuracy? No. And why is that? It's due to the fact his accuracy is better than anyone else's at this time.

"...don't you think Swiftech would also influance Bill?"

YES. But not in the way you seem to think. As Bill is employed with Swiftech he is working to help Swiftech improve it's product line, and he's no longer doing nearly what he once did to help other block makers do the same. If not for this, why the hell would Swiftech bother to pay Bill???? Hell, they'd sit back and make note of comments he'd make that could improve their product line without it costing them a dime. So they are paying him to focus his research and efforts on THEIR product line alone. Their gain is a major loss to the rest of the community, but that is the way it goes.

Do I think Bill is/has shown bias toward other peoples products, by attacking them, in the time he's worked for Swiftech? NO! Do I think some people, including yourself, precieve Bill's (sometimes sharply worded) comments in this and other forums, to be now so motiveated? YES, but that doesn't make it so. And once again, this is why Bill stoped writing formal articles and doing testing.

In fact, IMO, your attacks, YES ATTACKS, on Bill's ethics (bias if you prefer), are very much intended to silence Bill's voice, or discredit what he says in the eyes of the community of computer builders. Your string of posts both here and at other sites in this vien, are a cynical way of convincing people to disregard what Bill has to say as automaticly biased. Like the old saying goes, "A lie, told often enough, and loudly enough, becomes the truth or history.", (same for inuendos). In this way you will no longer have to weather Bill's pointing out TRUTHS you don't want looked at to closely, like your "kit".


While I've not commented on what I've seen going on up to now, that's changed with this thread. I'll not keep quiet while you continue to try to smear a good man's reputation with inuendo. Last night pH suggested that you should try to offer a real example of Bill, or other engineer, distorting fact in the water cooling community. You didn't manage to come up with one damn thing.

You seem really determined to instead, when challanged for your attacks, to just verbally wring your hands claiming, "No, I didn't say that." or "That's not what I mean...." Blah, blah, blah....then continue to restate the same arguements intended to errode Bill's reputation and to attempt to make him appear biased. Well saying, "what if....", or "........they could" don't make it.

Like I said last night, you're standing in front of the fan.

You asked in your last post if I've ever been to your site. Yes, in fact I've been there a couple times. And just to be sure I'd missed nothing new, I just checked it again.

Why not take down the leading item on the front page? The one regarding a kit you don't have for sale. At least until you do?

You have a good block Joemac, it's one of the very best for TEC use IMO. Would you like to make it better? Get rid of the damned aluminum top! ! I myself have never shown any interest in your block for the same reason I don't own a Swiftech, aluminum is NOT going to be in any system I build. So how's about a copper top? Yes it would cost more to make, charge more for it, Silverprop does. Or a Lexan top, that wouldn't cost nearly as much as a copper one, but would sell to guys like me that have no intention of having aluminum is a system (please note I said Lexan, not a cheaper plexi, which I at least wouldn't trust.)

Your chance to get the jump on Swiftech, Danger Den's blocks are at the moment ahead of you both in this area, as is Silverprop. Although I don't know if Silverprop makes much effort toward the TEC area market.

You asked me to look at your pricing, I did, and yes it's pretty good. But I shop more for max performance not price, which is why I have a Cascade.

Also why I'm still try'n to pull a rig together instead of having it finished.:shrug: ;)

Blackeagle
you will never win an argument with a propagandist,
you just provide them with yet another opportunity to peddle their line

a most simple analogy can be made:
whores deny the existence of virtue, thereby casting all other women as whores - no different than they
(do you recall that old Judy Collins song ?, lol)

Joemac
you came to my attention because of your 'product' presentation, and unsubstantiated performance claims
NOT because of your product's performance
in due course your wb's performance will be described (it is already known)

- and then the 'question’ will be:
was your testing capability not so hot ?
or you simply made false and misleading statements as part of your marketing spiel ?

so the "BIG BOYS" are concerned about their marketshare given your product's price/performance ?
- good to see you have a sense of humor

Joemac, I think you're right in not releasing your numbers. You and I have discussed this to some extent.

FWIW...

I think that the term "engineering" is loosely applied here. None of us are up to par, IMO, in engineering a block design: by today's standards, it would involve CFD tools, and the only few people I know that are knowledgeable enough about it, don't design blocks, with the exception of Roscal.

I'd call it "engineering" if this was 1950 or something, because we're really down to trial and error, when it comes to designs, after figuring out a basic design. Take the Cascade for example: you'd have to make about 30 variations of it, to get it right, and you could easily make another 30, refining it. It's more cost efficient to do this trial and error, then to go to university and get the corresponding degree (something that some people don't seem to get). You do however need a basic understanding of the scientific principles behind it all, but it isn't something that a reasonably intelligent person can't pick up throughout these forums. Case in point: my contribution to the Cascade design.


The original topic of this thread I think, came from BillA's apparent "interference" with JoeC's review of "the kit". For what it's worth, I can vouge for Bill being unbiased in his effort to have the review corrected, in spite of his affiliation with Swiftech. JoeC was at fault, but it isn't something that won't be fixed, and the results still stand clear. I actually have to commend Bill for pointing out the issue: I know it went right above my head!


One thing that still irks me, is reviews that don't state their error margins. As I pointed out in another thread, Player0's latest roundup's got to have an error margin of at least 2 deg C, and given that the spread of measured temps is about 5 deg C, the review's end result really, is seperating the "best" from the "worst". In thespirit of this thread, I'd sure like to see that discussed!



WA_JUK: got a graph for the latest Prescott predictions?

no, no, no... BRASS Would be much more praticle. Not only does it machine very well but it is ALREADY Gold!!! No need for the extra cost of anodizing. :)

:D

Thanks for the help, a third good option! And well polished brass does look very good.

:D

Man I missed all kinds of good stuff this weekend. Thats what I get for actually doing some of the shit I spew on these forums. :D

What bugs me the most is new members that in there very first post on this forum hit at least 5 key areas that have touched off sparks on this forum and I cannot tell if they are here to start shit or they are truley that clueless. I honestly belive they are here to start shit. Because they get an answer and if it doesn't turn into a flame fest they leave and never heard from again. But if it does turn into a flame fest they continue to hit the right phrases to keep the fire burning.

I have cought onto this little act and would alomost bet money there is one person under 30 different names on this forum posting the same flame bait over and over again.

I have learned to ignore this as of late and concentrate on known ligitimate people like Player0 and his misguided adventures here. People that are apart of a site and post misleading dribble touch a nerve with me. I for one am tired of the BS. The internet is going the way of the TV now. ADS, ADS, ADS, ADS and more ADS! The thing is they are in the form of (p)reviews now. It is also about who can get the most hits and traffic. And like TV it went from informing and entertaining the veiwer to how much money they can get for ads and how many hits they can get. The viewers are not on the top of the list anymore. Just like the viewers of TV are not first on the list anymore. Now it is about rating. How to get the most people watching so you can charge the advertizers more for advertizing on your network.
And the more people you get to view your network to more advertizers will want to advertize on your network.

The worst part about the net is on TV it kind of regulated itself as not just any jack off with $5 extra a month for a webhost and enough brains to install a premade site can spam the net with worthless cap content, spruce it up to make it sound good ("World Exclusive") and then drive a bunch of lost sheep, that probably just wrote the whole article off as vaporware, and get credit for the hits on alexa and then get more advertizers interested in your site even though the article was completely worthless and the viewers didn't even care enough to check the forums out!

Bah, there I go on another rant... Time for bed now. :D

got something on your mind JayDee?

joemac

this is an example of the bias you would attribute to me ?

don't tell us, we already know what you would have done

I don't think most of you get what bias truly is by the responses.

Lets say you test a product and it tests bad under some circumstatnces. As an employee, you focus on what your product does best and encourage others to look at the products best features and not mention the thing the product cant do.
When you guys put up something to sell you dont put

Sucks for 99% of users VERY impractical
New narrow market item thats ugly!
Bias. Its not always a negative, but quite frankly a fact of life. And it does effect all people. Recommending a certain product from your company as a good product - bias. No evil intended. Encouraging people to use a strong pump in most cases - bacause you just happen to make money from strong pumps. Posting on how unbias you are in order to promote a better image so people give you more credibility - bias. Finding irony for self gratification with I could have just past this by - bias.

bias (v. t.) To incline to one side; to give a particular direction to; to influence; to prejudice; to prepossess.

Marketing of any kind. Influencing toward a product. Pointing direction to a testing method because you belive in it.

To say you have no bias is saying I have no prejudices, I am not attempting to influence or give direction toward anyone with a different opinion. Someone stating this has to be in a coma or doesn't understand the definition.

Yes Bill I saw that, very nice of you to help DD with a blockage problem. Now let me see what would I have done? Maybe you should tell me (us) since you seem to know all my thoughts. I find it very odd that I am accused of not liking you since
1. I don’t know you personally.
2. I don’t want to form an opinion on a person based on what they say online.

No Bill these attacks on me have more to do with the facts that some see you as an idol, someone to look for when they need knowledge on this one particular subject (water cooling a cpu). Can I say I blame them- No. You arguably had one of the best test rigs for CPU water blocks. You shared your knowledge on this subject and people notice that indeed you are very informed on the subject. So what happens when someone who has idealized you see you questioned? They blindly defend you, threatens banning (Not that I have been threaten in this forum with banning :D) ETC.
For all that have missed the point of this thread
–This is not an attack on Bill – I just happen to point out that engineers can be biased. Read it Bill wrote that he was an engineer so he can’t be bias. Let me put in this way
A = Engineers
B = Bias
C = Human
D = Not human
E = Who knows
So
A + C = B
A + D = E

For the rest in here think of me what you may and if you formed your opinion of me by the things said about me here then you most likely think of me in a negative way. Sorry for disagreeing with someone you may look up to but I do have of mind of my own and if I think someone is wrong I will say it. I must also apologize for not being frightened out of posting some theories based on the thought that an elite few might say I am wrong. Heck if I am wrong tell me! If I can prove you wrong I will. If you can prove me wrong then thanks for correcting me. That’s what this forum should be about sharing ideas not intimidating newbee’s. You have to admit that when you went to work for a water block manufacture and I decided to become one things did change refusing to see that may mean the idol glasses are still on and that you need to step away from the mirror.
As for what I would have done With the DD blockage? I really don’t know I did not find that error in assembly Bill you did. Now how are you sure I would have not done the same. Look around I have help others when they could not get their swiftech blocks to work as expected. I did not slam your companies blocks nor did I promote the aquagold block – heck I even recommend your pumps to some- Now what does that say about me?

joemac
it is not at all personal, the basis of the recurring disagreement is intellectual
- it is your pernicious promotion of universal 'bias'

take your 'truth table' as a perfect example:

A = Engineers
B = Bias
C = Human
So
A + C = B

now there are many professions whose very functioning quite depends on their members being able to think and act in a unbiased manner
- yet you propose (and would like to assert as a truth) that if they are human they are also biased

that is a pretty ignorant statement, so what then is the logical conclusion ?

you have already stated what you will do wrt reviews:
take the good with the bad
i.e. figure you'll get as many erring positive as negative, and rely on the ignorance of the reader to be unable to distinguish between the two
- and of course your marketing by false and unsubstantiated innuendo as was shown on the Nordic site
-> so clearly you would apply that same standard to the reviews of your competitors
I know what you would do precisely because you have already said this; these are your words, not mine
(I must add that my boss, Gabe, is rather disturbed by my proactive role in this matter, but to me it is strictly an issue of intellectual honesty)

lets just accept that you, and sycophant winewood, claim all humans to be the whores of their paymaster
- while I assert that some can rise above that level
integrity is a nice word

you are welcome to the last word on this matter, let us hope it reflects better upon human capability than has been shown thus far

I'm sorry, which part was false?

My guess would be the forum posts when he represented the block as "as good as whitewater". I don't have the wording exactly right there as he had some vague terms and caveats to protect his statements "If it's worse then only by a little bit" I think.

crap, forgot to include sycophant Ben
sorry for the oversight there Ben

go to the Nordic site forum and post here the 'superior performance' series of comments by joemac and others
I'll be pleased to identify the false part
(I don't have the links)

Winewood,

You do NOT, have to have a bias or predudices to have a position based on research and testing you've done, nor to offer advice drawing from that same research and testing.

You have failed to show in any way how Bill has done other than to post information that he has ALWAYS supported with verifiable facts. Factual data, truth if you will, does not need anything in the way of distortion or bias of any kind, it stands on it's own.

Joemac,

I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to see you post more than a opinion, unsupported by any FACTS. You just keep restating/rewording a negative series of innuendos in a shallow attempt to discredit Bill Adams.

You are welcome to think what you like, no arguement there, and enjoy all the theorys you wish as well.

But to post such, without supporting FACTS, is then slanderous. So if you can prove me wrong for defending Bill then produce your proofs, if not, then push on.

And you're right regarding a negative view of you, in my case at least, due solely to your unproven innuendos, posted both here and at other sites.

Frankly you increasingly disgust me.

Ben,

I would be very interested in reading those posts that Bill refered to. Could you please post them.
I would rather see this unpleasant thread continue a bit longer, with the hope of putting to rest this issure of repetative attacks on this and other boards aginst Bill by both Winewood, and Joemac.

Thanks Ben.

BillA:
I believe you are refering to this
If not, this is what pH was refering to.

Where DrErling said:
Joemac replied to this comment with:

I hope this was it. Its at the very bottom of Page1.

And JayDee, sorry if I was one of those ignorant new users who you thought was here to start shit.

from the above linked thread:
by joemac:
"Actually, at very low flows I don't know what can match it."

it is this to which I take exception, subsequently 'corrected' in his next post, but still wildly inaccurate

http://thermal-management-testing.co...oe%20cw-hl.gif

a more careful reading of the thread would suggest that the comments, other than the above, are more typical of exaggerated marketing bs than overt lying

to the extent that joemac deserves an apology, here it is
- improve your in-house testing, and cease making inaccurate comparisons

As joemac stated here. I wonder if stating that he doesn't know what can match his block. Since the 5002 and the modifications were made around the time of that statement, does this mean he was lying? I guess it does if you are attempting to make it look like he his for your own reasons. I thought that new block data was released after his own.

Bill, did you test the AquaJoe yourself? If you didn't and those numbers are from different test benches then I don't think it good policy to put them on the same graph. If you have tested it, please post all block data as you have ZERO bias and I would love to see it personally.

You guys either didn't read the 1st posts radio thing or are daft as to the definition. I think it suits you to be oblivious for your own reasons.

WW was out at time of JoeMac's comments and was specifically mentioned in that thread. Did he not know of that block either?

http://www.overclockers.com/articles876/

Bear with me here, but if the Aquajoe is slightly higher in its C/W vs head loss curve than the MC5002, then I would infer it would be a slightly worse performer than the WW at lowest (2lpm is not a typical wcer flow rate even with a 1048 pump btw) flow rates, and much worse when you get to typical low flow scenarios.

Who other than Bill produces C/W vs. Pressure drop graphs?

While you are pulling up definitions, please try obfuscation. To be clear, that is what I am accusing you of doing.