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-   General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   and another 12V pump for Cathar (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8852)

fhorst 02-03-2004 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
about 2lbs of force required to stop the flow. I think you need to work on that thumb a bit. :D

Can easily stop the flow of my MD30-RZ with my thumb, and it's about 11PSI at dead head..
There you have it. Force :) I did not use additional force, just holding my thumb

All I can say that it's more pressue then I get here from the tap water. It's the best I got from a pump so far. (but then I need to say that I've only used aquarium pumps, with open impellor)

UberBlue 02-03-2004 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered

NPSH = net positive suction head -> google
most quiet sitting on its tail (flat backside, inlet facing up)
I'll take a stab at it.

Quote:
Total Head: The difference between the pressure head at the discharge and suction flange of the pump ( syn Total Dynamic Head. pump head, system head).
With that deffinition, it would seem to me that dumping the output of a pump directly to the input of another pump would alter the suction conditions, therefore altering the total head which would affect flow rate.

Intuitivley, I think, an amount of total head equal to the suction head of one pump is gonna come up missing.


Or:

With the pump on its back with the inlet facing up would definately alter suction conditions.

Does any of this really apply to a closed loop?
*puts on NOMEX suit*

BillA 02-03-2004 04:46 PM
UberBlue

not quite what I was alluding to, just that a high NPSH can result in cavitation
and this all/only applies to a closed loop

setting the pump on its tail is just to reduce the acoustical emanations

fhorst 02-03-2004 05:02 PM
Bill and Caltar (and all the others) , thanks for all the info :)
I'm going to turn my computer off tomorrow, strip it, and build it in my new case (chieftech big tower) with all the goodies i have in mind.

All that get's hot will be watercooled. I might even watercool the MCP's :)

Total project will include 4 or 5 pumps,two loops (one copper and one alu), White Water, D-tec zchip, GPU, Heatercore, Double Heatercore, BIX, bay res, moped rad (alu), koolance rad (alu), southbridge kooling (alu), memory cooling (alu), GPU memory cooling (alu), PSU cooling (alu), back side of motherboard/CPU cooling (alu), mosfets cooling (alu), HDD (3) cooling (alu) and some UV leds to make things nice.

I don't think I left anything out that get's hot. (if so please tell)

It's a bit of a project, took me 3 months of planning, but once finished, I'll post a link with pic's

It supposed to be low power usage and silent also :D

pauldenton 02-04-2004 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Think about the target market. The US market is flooded full of AC pumps in the $30-70 price range.

The MCP600 is already $85. From the average buyer's perspective, about the only thing it has going for it is that it's 12VDC. From a quality perspective (initial teething problems with the thrust bearing notwithstanding) it's worth every dollar in comparison to the sub-$60 AC pumps, but that's not what people see. They just want the cheapest thing that pushes a bit of water in a semi-decent fashion.

The Laing costs $95 for 1-249 units, and $78 for 250+ direct from Laing, USA. There's an additional price-break somewhere further along but I never asked about it. It's probably far enough away to make it not worthwhile for Swiftech to buy that many up-front.

Add in shipping, having to employ people to fit 12V molex connectors, at least a 20% markup to cover Swiftech's inventory, labour, warranty and support costs, and add another 20% for the end-market reseller, and the D4 would come out to around $130US MSRP under a Swiftech badge. I'm just plucking percentage figures out of the air here.

Now how many people will buy a $130 12VDC pump when they think that a $30-45 AC pump is typically good enough for their needs?

Mind you, you could always buy the D4 for $95 each direct yourself, but shipping is via Fedex only, so expect to pay around $115 if you bought one from Laing and then you still have to fit your own molex connector.

Even if Swiftech cut prices further sold them for $120US to basically knock out the people who would otherwise buy direct from Laing, how many people will then buy a $120US pump? For what gain? 0.5-1.5C? Sure, some people will, but maybe not many hundreds.

Over in Australia and the UK/Europe, a $120-130US 12VDC pump is a relative bargain where decent AC pumps are priced from an equivalent $80-130US. Not in the USA though where the mass-market is.

Mind you, the above applies for any company, not specifically Swiftech.
for anyone who doesn't know, word on OCAU is that Dangerden are going to be distributing the D4....

satanicoo 02-04-2004 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Well payment just cleared and the pumps are on their way. It's worked out to $147.40 each pump for 6 pumps, including shipping.

Still have to see if Australia customs slap a 10% GST on top that though, which will take the total to $160 each if they do.
Wait - It was that costy?
Taxes?

pauldenton 02-04-2004 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by satanicoo
Wait - It was that costy?
Taxes?
GST is the Australian Goods and Services Tax iirc - like European VAT :(

i imagine the rest is shipping to Australia from the US.....

Cathar 02-04-2004 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
GST is the Australian Goods and Services Tax iirc - like European VAT :(

i imagine the rest is shipping to Australia from the US.....
GST is also like the Californian Sales Tax (or Washington, or whatever). Unlike the USA, the Federal government is in control of the taxation - the individual states don't get to set taxation policy - but they can set levies on things like petroleum, land and housing sales, etc.

Per pump it works out to about $111US delivered, which is about the same as what someone in the USA would pay if they ordered a single pump from them.

pauldenton 02-05-2004 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
for anyone who doesn't know, word on OCAU is that Dangerden are going to be distributing the D4....
and they're talking about a selling price of "under $80"! :eek:

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 03:43 PM
What pump have you ordered Cathar?

Link?

Thanks

Cathar 02-05-2004 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
What pump have you ordered Cathar?

Link?

Thanks
I ordered the Laing D4, which is the same pump that Danger Den are selling. I got mine with the larger fittings though as this does help pump performance somewhat.

rocketmanx 02-05-2004 04:27 PM
Quote:
which is the same pump that Danger Den are selling
Very cool :cool:
Can't wait till mid February.
Might put a serious dent in Swifty's pump sales ;)

Thanks for the research Cathar, very nice pump find :)

BillA 02-05-2004 04:36 PM
[quote=rocketmanx]. . . . .
Might put a serious dent in Swifty's pump sales ;)
. . . . . QUOTE]
"might" is the operative phrase here, as I know more than others (also about this pump)
lol
never assume . . . . .

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 05:29 PM
What are the performance specs of this D4 pump?

Bill,

Is there any stronger pump than the 600 at Swiftech?

Cathar 02-05-2004 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
"might" is the operative phrase here, as I know more than others (also about this pump)
lol
never assume . . . . .
Now he worries me. :(

Will have to see how the 3/4" fitting pump I have works out. Hopefully here on Monday.

Cathar 02-05-2004 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
What are the performance specs of this D4 pump?
10kPa = 1.02mH2O = 1.45PSI

http://www.theforumisdown.com/upload...r_curve_lg.jpg

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 06:08 PM
Thanks Cathar!

But that is no where near the force of your MD-30z, closer to a MD-15 but short of that by a bit.

I thought you'd found a pump that would rival your MD-30, a misconseption on my part.

Yet it's still a interesting pump that gets it's power from 12v.

Wish Bill would just spill the beans on what's up with this pump that he knows of.........

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 06:09 PM
Does anyone know of a site or company that sells the Iwaki RD line of pumps? While Iwaki pumps are expensive, I'd be interested in seeing what they offer.

BillA 02-05-2004 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackeagle
. . . . .
Bill,
Is there any stronger pump than the 600 at Swiftech?
no, notwithstanding the MCP1200 fol de rol

Laing D4 P-Q curve

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
no, notwithstanding the MCP1200 fol de rol

Laing D4 P-Q curve

I'll have to admit I wasn't to surprised to see that response. LOL

Ghost pumps aside, that performance curve isn't as strong as I'd expected considering Cathar's goals. But I read a thread at Extremeoverclocking where Cathar also mentions this D4 and the fact he's going to try 3 in series to get where he wants to go. No question the X 3 D4 pumps will get him the head rate, and at a lot lower total wattage than a MD-30.

I wonder if I can guess what it is you were referancing knowing about this pump Bill? I'm wondering if the problem/issue will be in the three pumps not quite matching in performance, enough to create a stressor between the 3 pumps, which could lead to a much faster failure rate.

My best shot at the answer.

Blackeagle 02-05-2004 08:25 PM
Cathar,

I"m wondering if the RD-30's cost is in the $400 USD range + 80 watts. What about the RD-20 which would be 48 watts, and would most likly cost no more or less thant he X 3 D4 pumps, while also avoiding the risk of the pumps overworking each other. And with the RD-20's 26+ ft. of head if you changed out your rads to dual 2-342, low resistence rads, could this not take you a long way towards your goal?

Just another possible option.

Although the rad change could also be done for any other pump you change to.

Will be interesting to see what you gain in the end Cathar.

wicka 02-05-2004 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
for anyone who doesn't know, word on OCAU is that Dangerden are going to be distributing the D4....
Whoa, that'd be crazy...especially with the $80 price tag someone else mentioned.

pauldenton 02-05-2004 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicka
Whoa, that'd be crazy...especially with the $80 price tag someone else mentioned.
that was me as well - see here


February 4th

Danger Den is excited to announce a new 12V pump offering! The DD12V-D4 pump P-Q curve is phenomenal for a 12V DC pump (shown below - D4). In house testing shows it outperforms most AC pumps. Look for this pump to retail for under $80 at Danger Den. This pump does include a 24 month (2 year) warranty. The DD12V-D4 pump will be in stock middle-late February! More details to follow...

wicka 02-05-2004 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldenton
that was me as well - see here


February 4th

Danger Den is excited to announce a new 12V pump offering! The DD12V-D4 pump P-Q curve is phenomenal for a 12V DC pump (shown below - D4). In house testing shows it outperforms most AC pumps. Look for this pump to retail for under $80 at Danger Den. This pump does include a 24 month (2 year) warranty. The DD12V-D4 pump will be in stock middle-late February! More details to follow...
Uh...oh...*smacks self*

[EDIT] Oh damn, I had to reload the page like 8 times, the new post wasn't showing up...:confused:

fhorst 02-06-2004 01:14 AM
Hmm That baby looks nice!
I guess I orderd my 2 mcp600 a bit to soon :D (but I'm happy with them)
The price seems to be right, so I might be ordering one of these also, just to compair.

The MCP still makes to much noise, but it's only running for 14 hrs now. It is supposed to get silent after 2 or 3 days...

satanicoo 02-06-2004 01:43 AM
Am still holding to see what bill has to say... :confused:

BillA 02-06-2004 09:57 AM
I am not inclined to 'knock' another (vendor's) product just to be panning it
Cathar will doubtless be reporting his experience
and PHaestus might even add the Laing to his pump testing article
(as could I to the Swiftech comparative pump test article)

but why not let DD test it ?
and per their site they say they have already done so
??

dima y 02-06-2004 02:43 PM
Laing Thermotech raised the price for the D4 to $106 1-50 units and $96 for 50-250 units (bastards saw the demand)

so i would say at this point hold off till dangerden starts selling them for 80 which is much better deal.

Cathar 02-06-2004 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
but why not let DD test it ?
and per their site they say they have already done so
??
Come now. When have DD ever tested anything off their own bat? Rokk1972 found the silver RBX to be 3.5C better than the copper RBX by having his radiators outside of his case, and reporting a 3.5C improvement in the CPU - in-case temperature results - so you just know it's gotta be accurate!

Quote:
I am not inclined to 'knock' another (vendor's) product just to be panning it
You're scaring me now Bill.

BillA 02-06-2004 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Come now. When have DD ever tested anything off their own bat? Rokk1972 found the silver RBX to be 3.5C better than the copper RBX by having his radiators outside of his case, and reporting a 3.5C improvement in the CPU - in-case temperature results - so you just know it's gotta be accurate!
. . . .
well, if I don't comment on their pump - what would I say about 'testing' ?
did BigBen give it the WBTA blessing ?
(BTW Cathar, it is known that DD spent ~$600 on a Haake A82 chiller (eBay) - can only be for testing no ?)

no reason for fear Cathar, just another piece in the puzzle
recognizing that ALL designs are compromises, one quibbles about the priorities;
the WCing world awaits YOUR verdict Cathar
eh, do you think DD will send out review samples ?
if so, to whom ?

pHaestus, have you done any begging this week ?


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