I work on wafer production equipment in a chip plant, and I see power supplies all the time with no fans. I've always thought that the fans on a PC PSU were to vent the case, not because the supply needed it.

i have seen many a PSU where the fan has died and the PSU keeps on running.... for a while....
but they always die eventualy... usualy with a lot of smoke....

I have discovered computers run on smoke...
when the smoke comes out... it don't run anymore

A lot of the time that is the case, unless you're packing like 500+W into an ATX psu box you don't much need a heatsink on it.
As for messiness, that's presumably because PSUs are made as cheaply as possible. Though as I recall mine has a single PCB in it.

I don't get it. (oh well, a little)
If you have a heatsink on the PSU, and it is not life (!!!) why not just use that heatsink? run a tube over it, and off you go.

I'm realy impressed by all the modifications made to WC this antec, but was/is all the hassle needed?

I tied to WC once a PSU also (also Antec, as it makes to much noise with the crappy fans)
It worked like a charm, untill I was not carefull with attaching the hoses, and created a short :( That was the end of my 125 euro PSU.

I now have a Nexus, who is silent, but I'm going to watercool it anyway.
I will first mesure if the thing is not life.....

I've lived with a fanless PC for a few years now and most of the time it's in a low ambient. It's quite surprising how hot things can get in zero airflow, that wouldn't even get warm with even the slightest airflow.

In the same way you can run most CPUs at higher temps and they will work fine, it comes down to how long it lasts and stability. As said before in this thread PSU's often run for a while with a dead fan but the increased heat will more than likely lead to a premature death. It's the same with most components people have reported Graphics cards fans dying and the card still working for a long while even though they get hot. I can't speak for anyone else but I want to truely solve all the heat so a top end PC will run fanless, silent and cool without any heat issues. As such I had to get more involved with the PSU cooling solution as well as every other heat producing item.. :)

Bladerunner, you mention that the internals of a PCP&C PSU were messy.

Do you have pictures of the insides by any chance?

I believe I have an old 600W Lamda PSU lying around somewhere, if I get some time I'll take it apart and list its specs and details. It's passively cooled.
(It did cost close to the price of 2 PCP&C 600W PSUs though....!)

The PCP&C 600 watt wasn't that messy but considering it was more than twice as expensive as the enermax, it really didn't appear to be any better in build quality.

http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/picture...u/psu_033s.jpg http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/picture...u/psu_034s.jpg

I wasn't impressed, it also suffered from an annoying coil buzz.

I'd be interested in some pics of the Lamda PSU you have, cost is not a major factor I just like something that's better designed and put together.

I have a Lowe SPS8400 bench PSU, here that is rated 3v - 15v DC at 40 Amps continuous. True it is a larger item, but that doesn't change the fact it is a huge leap in overall build quality over any PC PSU I've come across, at a constant 22 amp load @ 14V it runs no more than warm with just a low speed 80mm fan. not overly expensive being a similar price to the Enermax, Antec, and Q-Tec, (far cheaper than the PC Power and Cooling 600 watt).

Here are a few images of it:-

http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/picture...lowe3small.jpg http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/picture...lowe1small.jpg

On the other hand it's a lot bigger and only has to produce 1 voltage.

Yeah I did mention it was larger and its one voltage, all be it variable, but was trying to say more from a build quailty perspective than anything. It's hard to tell from the picture but PCB is better quality, components fitted in a much neater way with better soldering, etc........... surely this level of basic build quaility should not be that hard to get in an ATX PC PSU's format?

You'd think not, especially for what some of these PSUs cost.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1176s.jpg

The PSU uses modules for 5v and 12v outputs, which can be swapped out for higher outputs.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1177s.jpg

The ratings can be seen above, with the 'Parallel' modules being two 5v lines connected using a control cable I believe, across the two.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1178s.jpg

The PSU does use a fan, I believe this is to cool the AC-DC converter, which has a heatsink on it.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1180s.jpg

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1182s.jpg

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1184s.jpg

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1187s.jpg

Not often I've seen Nichicon, let alone in a PSU.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1188s.jpg

The inside of one of the modules; there does not seem to be any major cooling, with the entire unit incredibly compact.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1189s.jpg

The AC-DC converter I believe. The HS has a number of VR chips on it.

http://www.aotw28.dsl.pipex.com/imag.../IMG_1190s.jpg

550W output, and the certification labels. Note the BABT approval, the PSU must have been designed for telephone switches, although I believe it came from a large hard disk array.

Damm. I've just tested my PSU (Nexus PSU ) And it's LIFE :mad: (well, one of the heatsinks is)

My multi meter went wild when I connected the two heatsinks. At 750v AC (High Voltage) it gave me a "6". as I'm not that much into electronics, I don't know exactly what that means. If I put it on 200V AC, it gives me a 0.6. :shrug:
When i tried to to mesure the the amps, my whole house went dark :D and I had to turn on the earth fuse again...... Big bang your'e dead... If I just would have touched it.

ALWAYS be carefull!!

Anyway. I now have the option to water cool the heatsink that is not life, or not to watercool at all. If you look at the link (page 2), you can see that one of the heatsinks is connected to the housing of the PSU. Also the mica shims seem good connected. The other heatsink is standig on it's own, and there does not seem to be any protection at all.

After my nice experiance in the dark, I don't want to ground the life heatsink. Unless the electronic specialists can give me some guidelines :p

One of the things I've done, is mount the fan outside, so this gives loads of room to play with.

My questions are:
- Is it usefull to watercool only one heatsink?
- Is it possible to ground the other heatsink?
- Will a watercooled PSU give more stable voltages?
(as my fan is only 20dba, my reason to WC is to get it more stable then it currenly is.)
...............Min.........Max......Variation (%)
+3,3v.....3,47.......3,49..........0,58%
+5v........4,76.......4,97..........4,41%
+12v.....11,86.....12,16.........2,53%

Fhorst you said...
After my nice experiance in the dark, I don't want to ground the life heatsink. Unless the electronic specialists can give me some guidelines

What you need to do is put the cover back on your PSU! Cooling it with water wont do anything at all to make your computer better. A decent PSU already provides all the stability you need. If it doesnt, its defective or too weak for the job. The only thing you can gain with water cooling a PSU is silence. There are better and safer ways to do that. I have an A.S. degree in electronics and 12 years experience repairing monitors, PCs, and many different types of semiconductor manufacturing equipment. If that makes me a specialist I leave up to you. I'm not trying to give you hard time although I know it may sound that way.

Thanks for the reply. 12 years experience should make you a lot more specialist as I am.

I've been playing with PSU's (enermax, antec, 500 and up Wattage) for quite some time, payed loads of money to find them not stable enough or with loads of noise.

The Nexus gives me what I want. Silence and stable!

What I've been told many times (after asking) by several specialists, is that at a lower temerature, the output of a PSU/mosfet will be more stable. Sure, we are talking here of a mosfet beeing 60c against 30 degrees.

I want to make my system as cool as possible, and that includes my PSU.
As I'm transfering a lot of heat already to the outside of the case, the air comming into the PSU will be colder then a normal setup.

Now you can think : If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it....
Well, that's just not me. I like to get the max out of things, and that mostly requires some form of tweaking.
My max OC at this time is 3.720 on a P4 2.8.
I want to see if I can push it further, running on pure water (no chillers, pelts, vapo)
I want to water cool all that get's hot if I can.

Watercooling system memory won't give a better OC, but it will keep my system temps a bit lower, so I watercool them :D

The cover of my PSU is now closed.

I did place the fan on the outside, as that makes a better fit in my case. This also gives some space to make changes for improvements (?) as the builders of the PSU are restriced with space.

If you want to make an improvement, and can't let it sit just the way it was build, what's the best improvement to make?

If you want to make an improvement, and can't let it sit just the way it was build, what's the best improvement to make?


Easy! Stickers and cathode lights! Just kidding...

Since you've obviously got the desire, why not read up a bit on the web about electronics, ( at least the fundamentals of AC and DC ) and learn how to fully use your multimeter safely? Knowledge is power, and with this particular endeavor, trial and error is NOT the best way to learn. Glad you were not offended as I didnt mean it that way, I was prepared for a flaming here but felt obligated to speak up. Good luck. Dont kill yourself.

No flames here mate, we are all here to learn.
I'm called a "specialist" with software, just due to that I'm MCSE , Master CNE, It Project+ etc. Well, the only thing I know is that I don't know anything :D

I know the difference with DC/AC, but I have no in depth knowledge of mosfets and how/why the captiance (right word?) becomes AC. Nor do I understand why my earth fuse snapped when the "life" heatsink got in contact with it. (sure there was a to high voltage leak...... I understand thast part :) )

I don't have to know, I know what's most imported: ALWAYS be carefull when you play with a PSU. So I am :)

I have no intention to redesign the PSU, or to fully understand how it is working.

I do however now have 2.5 x 12 x 12cm extra space in the PSU, and I want to make good usage of it.

The extra space should already provide a better airflow.
Will placing some additional fins to the heatsing do some good? or is it just a waist of time?

An ammeter is in essence a short. It has the lowest resistance they could build for the price you paid so that it does not affect your current measurement by adding its own load. ( thereby decreasing the current ) Im not clear on exactly what two points you connected your meter to, but clearly they are not the same point (shorted together) electrically , and you shorted them together with your ammeter. You may want to open the meter and check the fuse for the amp measuring circuit. Chances are its a goner.

While I certainly agree with your advice to fhorst in this instance, (and it should probably apply to anyone else that has no proper understanding of AC voltages). However on the other hand if we all took this attitude water-cooling PC's would never have happened.......

If you have water in the PC, (but no water-cooled PSU), a spray leak, leaking Res or Pump etc, has the potential to get the PSU just as wet as a leak inside a water-cooled PSU, all be it less likely & potentially less severe.....

I do believe IF a water-cooled PSU is done well then the potential risk is extremely small, (over and above the rest of the PC being water-cooled). It bothers me when mains voltage electricity is still seen by some as a dangerous monster out to get people. Water in a PSU, (assuming it's done well), is not really that different than the mixing of mains voltages and water going on in many other appliances we use and ignore around the home all the time, washing machines, dishwashers, stream irons etc etc, the list is long.. None of these are an issue when earthed, correctly fused and power supplied through an RCD.

I'd be very interested to know what they are because I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble with my PSU? :)

LOL might be. Oh well, I'll just buy an other one for 4 euro's. Crappy, I know, but good enough for me. (as I mostly mesure the voltage on bataties and light bolts) I gues I turned it to the wrong setting :)

My PSU is still working, I'm still living, so no problems.

Question remains: Should I do anything with the additional space?

Id rather not hijack the thread by getting off point but I couldnt resist this one...

Bladerunner said..
I'd be very interested to know what they are because I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble with my PSU?

Im interested to know what they are too. How did that improve the performance of your computer? What did you gain? Besides the satisfaction of successfully engineering something, I mean. The only point I was making is that I dont see what is to be gained by watercooling the PSU.

As for better/safer ways, I like my way which is just to take the fans out. The airflow it gets from air flowing through the case is all the airflow it needs. Or you could buy a fanless one, or one with fans that are essentially silent, or replace your existing fan(s) with quiet types. Hey, its your PSU so do what you want, but this is one item that I will not be watercooling.

Fhorst you could put a "space reserved for future use" sticker on it. :) I'm glad everything turned out OK.

ROFL. I will do that :) any nice layouts for the sticker?

I need to place my PSU adventure to a later date. I need to get my system up and running again, as I'm now using my son's computer, and he starts complaining :D

Idea's for the later date will be helpfull.

AntiBling


"There are better and safer ways to do that. ." (talking about psu silence)

I said:=

"I'd be very interested to know what they are because I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble with my PSU?"

Removing a fan and doing nothing else to the PSU, especially when the system has no other fans is definitely not better or in my mind safer, unless buying new PSU's is your favourite past time..

Fanless PSU's do exist but most, (are rubbish and), do not benefit from more intelligent design or concepts... just PSU's that have had their fans removed and are now rated lower. True fanless "high" wattage units have big sinks, (outside the unit sometimes), and still tend to run hot.

Silence sounds a very simple concept to get, but to make your PC sound exactly the same when its on as it does when it's off, and still keep it near top end performance wise is not easy at all..... Yes you can remove all the fans and have everything running so hot it almost cooks, but to truly solve it with silence takes a lot more work.

Granted I'm obsessed :p and I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to follow my religion, however to infer there is no point is simply missing the point ;). Effectively cooling a PSU so that it runs silently takes far more than just disconnecting the fan and crossing your fingers!

Oh and don't get me started on this mythical silent fan thing again.... it's a myth trust me :D

One thing stands: the only silent fan is a non spinning, non air moving fan.
All the rest will make sound vibrations.

The closest thing to that is the 2000 grid sandpapered fins of a 80mm airborne papst running at 5.5v without guard or anything obstructing it's airflow :)

This is a great forum! No flaming. A PSU with no airflow at all is not a good idea I agree. In my PC there are indeed fans although you would be hard pressed to hear them unless you kneel down next to it. Its not truly silent. Good luck to all.

I agree and the two 12db "rated" pabsts I had wouldn't run, (start up), at 5v. they would at 7v although the airflow was pretty week, and they still made an annoying bearing sleeve / motor shaft variable sussshhing sound...not pleasant at all

Not to get too anal, (I know I often do), but we are talking extremes here, like fhorst I do believe the only truly Silent Fan is the one that's still disconnected and in its box ;)

fhorst

On the PSU you may want to read through my PSU build again. While I'd not deem to present it as an authority on the subject, (there seems to be mixed opinion on the mosfet wire extension part from some "experts") Some say its no issue if the wires are not too long & thick enough for the current loads, but one B&O engineer inferred.. DO NOT DO IT! it wont work!!... This was after it had been running water-cooled / fanless for about 1½ years :rolleyes: ...... This is why I prefer being a modder to an engineer :p My build may not be the best way or the only way but it works for me with the Enermax PSU I used. It covers the live sink issue and my ways around it along with the update article that covers all the other things I found out along the way to have it running over two years cool & fanless...

I have worked on several PC lately that take a large slow spinning fan and baffle the air into a very small area. This works very well and makes very little noise – the draw back is that the computer has dust bunnies that multiply like the real thing. As many of the computer experts in here know dust is a very serious problems for PC, which is why I was working on them to begin with.

Bladerunner, Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've visitit your site about a hondred times :) I like your style!

Zero fan is not my goal, maximizing performence is. And a lot of the performence out there is limited due to the heat. When it gets to hot, the life span is half, and lockups are regular.

Like you've stated, it's amazing to see how a spot that does not get warm with only a little bit of airflow, will be hot in a situation with no airflow.

A PAPST will not start at 7v, but you can turn it down to 5.5 once spinning. Airflow will be more weak, but there is some airflow. After sandpapering the blades the sound went down.
A PAPST like that, in a closed case, is for me close enough to silent. The same goes for me for the 12cm PAPST :)
This is also the reason why I use 3 rads, to be able to get enough cooling at alomst silent airflow.

I don't have the soldering/milling skills (and believe me, I've tried!) to make it like yours or petter. It only ended me up in killing expensive PSU's :D

Oh well, Once I have my system up and running again, I'll thing of something :)

The site is very nice, i agree.

If all you want is maximizing performance, then watercooling your psu is not the way to go I believe. You will at best make the psu perform equally good with watercooling contra aircooling, I have not yet watercooled a psu with a noticeable reduction in performance though.
I do not really consider lifespan that much, at the pace hardware is replaced, the only hardware that dies in my hands is because of bad treatment. But I do not like my hardware hot either, not because of lifespan though.

About skills, I had trouble soldering in the beginning, but with practice it got better. I think that the timefactor is more important than the skills factor. The more time you put into the blocks, the nicer you can make them look and properly perform. The performance is properly more likely to lie in the design, but a good lapping and stuff will have something to say.