the zalman 7000CNPS Cu has little trouble beating more w/c systems, and is in fact quieter than most w/c systems.


anyway, back to the car analogy I guess... //edit by pH: car analogy removed

I agree - you need to set the rules at the start. Account for everything that may be required. Also, take in to consideration the fact that stuff is a hell of a lot cheaper in the US then here, especially as the exchange rate of £-$ is so good (for importing).

Should be interesting. Maybe we should set a various set of tests that cover temperature, size, sound level etc? As just doing temperature I know the "Yanks" will win ;)

Well I can enter that contest

Processor: 2400+ (1.8 ghz) at 2.3 ghz, 1.825 volts
Block: D-tek Spri@l, lapped perfectly
Pump: Danner Mag 3 (someday it wont leak, I promise)
Rad: Bonneville doublecore
Fans: 2x120 mm Evercool @ 7v

Temps: Full load, processor is, at max, 8C over ambient.
Noise: Nearly silent. I can hear the harddrives access and spin. The pump puts out no noise, the fans are the only noise in the system.

No slide but if you use two rads & we submit one... well yes, then I could taste defeat.
Is this how you guys normally do comparisons? No, I thought not. When I said keeping it real, I think you know what I meant...

Lets stick to off-the shelf production parts for a start but BillA, you're right, it will require a bit more thought to reach a common testing ground.

If you want dual rads, we'll both do duals; if you want deltas *shudders*, so be it.
I can tell you haven't tried these blocks yet... ;)

Kronchev - our blocks don't need lapping & bonnevile core is not the production off-the-shelf part I meant. Next, you'll be saying copyman's rads, well, if so, let us both eat cake...

[edit] Thx HAL (you wanta see a Titan aquatube with a red LED then ;)) might be better to keep other product enquiries out of this for now but if you want to mail me or check in the w/c product enquiries section of our forum, I'll get to it as soon as I can :))

Pug
was not trying to go 'over the top'
as you know we use dual rads, 80s for now

why all the fol de rol, why not just send your wb to pHaestus ?
- nothin' rads gonna do to make it perform any better

My block didnt need lapping either, but I tried to do it once because I was bored and ended up ruining the surface. Bonneville core can be substituted for any double heatercore.

Well, we use metric, you use imperial {- we also have a kickass 12V pump (& a 24V step-up transformer) which should dispel the low-flow rantings}.

Thought it might make it easier but yes, I hadn't totally thought it through.
Hence the suggestion of a BIX2 - easy for you guys to source & we have them with G1/4 tapped threads for interchangeable fittings now. :)

I concur, whichever parts are selected for the larger set-up should be tallied using UK/EU prices.
(Or price the German kit according go the US distributor of the parts).

However, I think both systems need to be commensurate with what a good majority of their advocates are currently using on a daily basis.

I think for the US kit that would entail something like a Cascade/RBX, 1/2" fittings, single 120mm heatercore with 2 medium output axial fans at 12v in a push-pull arrangement, MCP600 pump.

The German systems seem to typically be run with a dual 120mm rad but with 2 fans in a push only configuration.
Add to that PnC or 10mm/8mm ID fittings, an Eheim 1048 and a Nexxxos HP/CC CF1/Cuplex block.

I think the above parts would form representative systems of each of the opposing philiosophies and are certainly consistent with the types of set ups I was thinking of when asking the initial questions.

all a BIX is, is a painted heatercore.

//edit by pH: off-topic stuff removed

Back to the original subject:
The Germans do seem to focus on quiet (Innovatek passive radiators, for example), and given water's specific heat, you really don't need a lot of flow to carry away the heat generated by a CPU. IMHO, the downfall of low flow is that the lack of volume/flow translates into a lack of velocity in the waterblock(s). And the downfall of quiet (passive or low airflow) radiators is that coolant is warmer. So you end up with a double whammy - less efficient transfer into warmer coolant.
But you get quiet. I like quiet. IMHO there's not lots of point in having a fast PC on/under your desk if fan/pump/disk noise is going to drive you to distraction.
Up to now, I've pretty much been following the German low-noise pattern (both for my personal PC and for others I've set up - including one in a recording studio) - but with 3/8" (9.53mm) ID tubing (German stuff seems to be 8mm ID). It does seem to work - even with overclocks and the occasional couple of hours testing at 100% load (SiSoft CpuBurn). I think what's going on is that as more heat is generated, the coolant temp goes up, which increases the temp differential between radiator and room air, making the radiator more efficient.
I've since switched my "main" PC over to 1/2" ID tubing, a slightly more powerful pump (1046 to HPPS) and BlackIce Pro to 6x6 heater core. An undervolted 120mm panaflo "L1A" fan, which had no problem pulling sufficient air through a BIP is essentially stalled with a 2" heater core. Stacking two fans got me to reasonable temps (CPU diode shows 5C cooler than with BIP, system only slightly louder). I'm now playing with cage blowers to see if that gives me a better flow-through-restriction / noise tradeoff. Of course, at this point, I'm not looking for a better overclock (limited to ~205MHz by system board anyway) but playing with what's turned into a fun hobby.

It would be a little unfair to give the US kit a Cascade since it's Australian. And the same for the White Water. The next best would be a TDX or RBX as they are American (even though they copied the WW) or probably a Swiftech block.

clearly Pug's intent was to compare commercial kit offerings,
not an assemblage of components from various sources

or again, was he so doing ?

Pug needs to better define his challenge

since we are debating philosophies... the austrailian, cather specifically, seems to follow more the u.s. side... so i think it would be fair. but the new swifty should be able to hold its own just fine, especially the 6002 as it should see slightly higher flow rates

Hmm...I'd say it was more clever engineering than brute force. But I'm pretty new at all this :) Cathar, what's your take on it?

definatly good engineering, but also requires big pump with a big head to be able to push high enough flow rates to see it's best preformance

Back on the subject
 

I think an ideal test rig would be basically high-flow vs. low flow. Since Yanks dig heatercores, and Europeans like BIX's we can find a common radiator...a small European car's heatercore for instance. For a pump, I would probably pick a Eheim 1046 because its pretty high flow, and pretty common on both sides of the drink. That way we can focus on the blocks.

if you just want to deal with the blocks then just toss them into pH's setup, then calculate restrictivness. i believe the original challege was for a complete setup.

Okay, how's this. To keep testing from getting too complicated and also to stick to the original theme of the thread (what's left of it), what say we offer our block, fittings, hose and molex feed pump against yours?
Same rad & fans to keep the comparison on a level playing field...

Sound better?

[Edit] I stand by the BIX2 choice as easiest to get comparitive results and allow both sides to test & correlate the results of their own tests as a backup check.

I will either test a wb or I will test a complete kit (only kits currently offered to consumers as an all in one package). Presumably a kit is engineered to optimize the tradeoffs in size, flow, cost, noise, and performance. Testing only part of a kit doesn't show this (and then my normal wb test would be far more useful).

how about we do both, pug gets you the block and you can test that, and in the mean time the kit test can be worked out... sound feasable?

Limiting the scope to 'kits' may lose some of the validity in particular on the side of the US-system champions who heavily prefer hand-picking parts.

However, if it is to be a kit, I think nothing less serious than the recent Swiftech 22600 using the new MCW6000/6002 block should be considered.


Whilst that is partially true, it would seem that most (all?) "currently offered" kits are compromised in one aspect or another, most likely due to the lack of regular sourcing/OEM deals of specific parts.
The above Swiftech kit does look to be the least compromised of the 3/8"+ kits on the market though.

Have no problem with a kit - just don't want to see it up against quad cores & a ship's bilge pump, y'know?

As for twin 80s... hardly performance oriented, eh BillA?... ;) (sorry, old joke)

Happy to keep thrashing this out until we find a fair platform. :)

It seems to make sense to me to have 4 distinct categories when evaluating a kit:

1) Ease of use (entry level =no modification to case is necessary for installation; emphasis given here on "fool proof"; typical means a few fan holes; advanced means some CNC req'd)
2) Quality of mfg (Goop? Leaks? Cobbled together in basement or absolutely stunning?)
3) Performance (lowest CPU temp wins)
4) Quiet (lowest noise levels win)

No kit would have perfect marks in all 4; can't be small and silent and cool...

BTW I am going to delete all car posts in this thread in 3...2...1

Pug
gonna have to ignore the clutter for the moment

wb & pump eh ?
well, with a given wb, pump, and rad there WILL be a single flow rate
-> do you know what the actual flow rate is in your system ?
if not, why not ? (j/k)

so then all one needs to do is look at that point on the curve, no ?
why are we making this so complex ?

if its a kit 'shoot out', fine
Swiftech will have to hold for a couple of weeks, new kit options coming - but even so a shoot out win is unlikely as we do not offer so large a rad in a kit
(and I must admit that the Swiftech kits are NOT oriented to maximum performance, maximum installation convenience is the clear goal)

Pug, a 'kit' as being defined here is a package of a complete WCing system with instructions

pHaestus
concur with your groupings, permits a user to measure by Their yardstick

That sounds pretty ideal.
 

I think thats a great idea. It is the pumps and the blocks that seem to differentiate us.

Hey, since the Canadians are in North America, and have baseball and basketball teams, play tons'o hockey, and drag race...all with us Northern Mexicans, perhaps they should be counted in the USA philosophy school. In that case, can we use C-Systems pumps? And if so, how many are we limited to, because you can plug'em in in series, and I don't know how many you can effectively do that with. (It would be a fun experiment though)

I think you should also consider performance when mix-and-matched.

A kit that performs better under the same conditions with an 'opposing philosophy' part in the loop is IMO not an exemplar of good design.
Although with the high likelyhood of compromise amongst most kits available, this may be acceptable.


It's very possible that the German kits share that goal to an extent.

Are we talking about premade kits or DIY kits? Of course a premade kit, ala Koolance or Swiftech or Corsair (I think is one?) are made to be minimal effort. Most of the effort in setting up a watercooling setup is doing something with the radiator, what these do is already have a box for the radiator that you set next to/on top of your computer. Other than that you cant really make it any easier than hooking up hoses and attaching a block.

I think we've accepted "kit" in this context as meaning a bundled group of parts that would otherwise be available seperately rather than a pre-made solution.

This is really only worthwhile if we can get some of the big European mfgrs to submit complete kits. If so I think it would be really interesting for those of us in North America to get a chance to see how our Teutonic wc brethren have been developing.

As an aside, I remember why I never bothered to moderate the forums; that took a lot of effort to clean up! Car guys and politics guys please start new threads.