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-   -   Watercooing from China (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10583)

jaydee 09-29-2004 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyek
What is concerned in my calculation above focus on the heat transfer through the tube to outside, just like the base of a aircool heatsink, yes like u said, the soldering or some other joint technology are absolutely important, but no matter which thchnology u choose the heat transfer through the base is the same, when ignoring the second path for heat loss.
Jaydee, I said that is not important only wanna prove brass is not a loser when acting as the tube in a rad comparing to copper and aluminum, even it has a 1/4 conductive K of copper, that is all. However there is still some space to choose another metal with a lower conductive K according to my calculation, of cource at first make sure all we talk about is the big or huge rad.

Ok, I misinterpreted your comments some. I thought you were saying it didn't matter much what the material was for the tubes not just copper brass or AL.

jaydee 09-29-2004 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered
the current mfgn method for both copper/brass and alu is furnace brazing
I have been led to understand (no data !) that the thermall resistance of the brazed joint is lower than the soldered one - a lot to due with thickness of the solder 'TIM'

Check this out. Adds some substance to your comments. http://www.copper.org/innovations/20...uprobraze.html

That article says the AL radiators are alloy. That kinds throws the calculations to hell. Wonder what the thermal properties of that alloy is..

joeyek 09-29-2004 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116
Ok, I misinterpreted your comments some. I thought you were saying it didn't matter much what the material was for the tubes not just copper brass or AL.

thats it! ;) JD
but I still wonder which rad is the ideal rad of Cathar, I can't find that thread.

BillA 09-29-2004 04:35 PM

thin, low fin density

jaydee 09-29-2004 05:12 PM

I think I finally found the thread. http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10000

jaydee 09-29-2004 05:25 PM

I found this extremely interesting. I like the sound of a single pass thin rad that the fan can be utilized more efficently to make up for the lack of thickness. Pretty sure that's what he is getting at. That would be much closer to my opinion of a rad designed spacifically for PC water cooling. Should get less noise with more airflow aswell!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar
Where Bill is getting at here is matching the PQ curve of the fan to the air-flow vs efficiency curve of a radiator.

If people looked at the thread earlier where someone asked about putting two radiators in air-flow series and I munched the math, it was pretty clear that this was a bad idea. Two radiators in air-flow series is essentially the same as a single double-thickness radiator.

The issue was that the fan was unable to sustain adequate air-flow through the thicker radiators to the point where the extra core rows weren't doing much of anything at all (in fact they were contributing almost nothing).

With a piss-weak fan (and most axial fans are piss-weak) something like a large orificed area single-row cored heater-core, or a tranmission oil style cooler, will be a better match.

2-row heater-cores are designed to typically be matched up with their blower-fans that are pushing 1+ inH2O of air-pressure, which is an easy thing to do for an automotive heater-core blower where at full chop they will easily do ~3inH2O of air-pressure at quite staggering flow rates (in comparison to similarly sized axial fans). Heater-core blowers also tend to sit somewhere where the bulk of their real noise is muffled very heavily, so they don't sound quite as annoying as they really are.

Given a certain sized orifice area and a good bit of nouse, one could easily design a more efficient solution than what we presently have, and still be using fairly quiet fans and getting very good cooling performance. Of course brute-force will always win, but we're talking quiet and efficient here.

Current heater-cores, by my estimate, are perhaps 3-4x more restrictive than what is ideal for a quiet low-pressure fan to work really well with. Ideally we want our fan to be pushing something like 75-80% of its rated air-flow, instead of the 30-40% that we see today with today's dual-row cores. Of course with a more "open" core, the efficiency for air-flow will drop away, but when air-flows are fairly low, this is less significant than one would think.

Something like a 15x15cm cored area heater-core, that was single-row (~ 1/2" to 5/8" thick), with a nice 10-15 degree angled shroud leading into the 12cm low-speed fan that is pulling, and had a fin density around 10-12FPI with ~8mm or so spacing between the tubes would likely perform quite a deal better than a BIX when matched with the same fan.

As you stick on more and more powerful fans, the BIX will come into its own over our low-speed-fan optimised core, but then you're paying for it with noise.

The lessons are there given all the testing that Bill has published in the past for those who are prepared to munch the math.


BillA 09-29-2004 05:32 PM

and this is the intent of the BI Pro series, a la HW Labs

Groth 09-29-2004 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyek
check the Delta T now, .00274c for copper and .00463c for aluminum and .001c for brass.

You've got a typo there, should be .010 for the brass given your conditions. Out of curiosity, where'd you get the rad with tubes that have surface area on one side only? :D

jaydee 09-29-2004 05:47 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered
and this is the intent of the BI Pro series, a la HW Labs

I seen the new BI's in that thread, well at least the 3 fan version. I now understand better why you don't want to help them make it better aswell and I assume your are already working on, if not having a protoype in hand, of a better version spacifically for Swiftech.

The main problem I have with current rads is they are not computer friendly as far as mounting. Swiftechs Rad Box helps to some degree but having that thing stick out the back of the case as demonstrated on Swiftechs website isn't a desirable thing for me. I would much rather it be easily fitted inside the case somehow. Can't always get what you want though.

BillA 09-29-2004 05:52 PM

6#s of sh*t in a 5# bucket
if the rad cannot be mounted via the fan, it will always be a chore

custom cases are the answer, but the bling bling makes it impossible to 'select' a case for all

jaydee 09-29-2004 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unregistered
6#s of sh*t in a 5# bucket
if the rad cannot be mounted via the fan, it will always be a chore

custom cases are the answer, but the bling bling makes it impossible to 'select' a case for all

I hear ya. Let's also hope BTX never gets off it's feet!

BillA 09-29-2004 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee116
I hear ya. Let's also hope BTX never gets off it's feet!

amen
but the elephant walks where it will

Cathar 09-29-2004 06:03 PM

Yes - I would love to see some custom water-cooling cases.

A cavity at the bottom of the case with 3 x 12cm fan mounts along each side. Can stick in a BI I/II/III, along with 1/2/3 12cm fans as suits the user's budget/needs. A real opportunity there. Make it so the rads can be mounted on either side so the case can be positioned with the fans pointing away from the user to muffle fan noise, and rads facing the user so the user can always see if the rads are getting clogged with dust, and easily cleaned.

Could happily fit all that inside a mid-tower sized case, being effectively a midi-tower chamber atop the radiator enclosure in the bottom. Would have room for the pump in the bottom too.

As usual, the custom case crowd does make things somewhat difficult though.

joeyek 09-29-2004 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth
You've got a typo there, should be .010 for the brass given your conditions. Out of curiosity, where'd you get the rad with tubes that have surface area on one side only? :D

yes u r right, tube area should be double :p , my calculation result is not accurate just some round numbers to show the diff of these 3 metal.

aaronspink 09-29-2004 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathar
Yes - I would love to see some custom water-cooling cases.

A cavity at the bottom of the case with 3 x 12cm fan mounts along each side. Can stick in a BI I/II/III, along with 1/2/3 12cm fans as suits the user's budget/needs. A real opportunity there. Make it so the rads can be mounted on either side so the case can be positioned with the fans pointing away from the user to muffle fan noise, and rads facing the user so the user can always see if the rads are getting clogged with dust, and easily cleaned.

As usual, the custom case crowd does make things somewhat difficult though.

Though the CM Stacker is pretty close to that right now. Just need about an extra 40mm on the bottom compartment.

killernoodle 09-29-2004 11:19 PM

I'm looking at the CM stacker as I can mount my radiator vertically and still have enough room for 4 hard drives and 2 optical drives. There is also plenty of room for the pump at the bottom and lots of room for everything else.

satanicoo 09-30-2004 09:34 PM

I still find it hard that a case with the size of a stacker can get interesting to the majority of the public.
To me, perfect would be a smaller case with custom rads adapted to the botton, front, rear, and maybe the side, and fully customizable with several options, in order to make a case unique per user. And of course, cost-wise.

Wonder if thats possible...

AngryAlpaca 09-30-2004 09:41 PM

Well, if the CM stacker was dropped down a few inches, there'd still be plenty of space for a radiator and all the goodies, just not a 120.3.


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