Hope you have read Wolverine 2.5
http://www.wlv.com/products/databook/

yup yup
best reference out there
but you know I do it bassackwards Les

I was really only addressing the mfgn considerations which will dictate product cost/availability

Thanks for the link Les. Re-affirms a few ideas for me.

I try to re-invent the wheel

Don't forget this is Procooling. Unless I finally get around to building a PVR/Home Theater PC zero OC is blasphemy.

I should have been clearer that this was personal opinion (sorry). It's based on my own experiences with 6x6 (or so) heater cores and undervolted fans, Cathar's posting on in-air-series-rads and my experiences with both BI pro and BI Pro II rads.
1) BI Pro is not really sufficient for cooling an overclocked overvolted CPU, even with a moderately loud fan (Panaflo M1A at 12V)
- so 144 sq cm not so great, particularly with a quiet fan.
2) 6x6 cores are fine for cooling an overclocked CPU - even with low powered fans, so long as you keep them out of stall, which means stacking fans (same airflow but more pressure)
- so 235 sq cm fine but that's with whatever additional efficiency the 2" thick fins give. A WAG is 10% , so say we'd want 260 sq cm or so
3) BI Pro II rads fine for cooling overclocked CPU even with Panaflo L1As at 5V - so long as there isn't something else in the case impeding airflow.
- so 288 sq cm is good, too
So... what I'd really want as a minimum would be more like 260 sq cm - but it's possible that the additional fin thickness gives almost no additional benefit - and it's also possible that some frontal area less than 235 (but definitely more than 144) is actually fine.
Sorry I don't have anything more solid than that - would love to get corrected with "real" numbers, even if it included a whack upside the head... :)
Oh - the other attraction of the "big momma" is that it's actually very easy to get into one of the "standard" places in a case - the lower front - just takes a few minutes with a jig saw (I actually use an air body saw, but it's the same idea) to carve a simple square hole - actually easier than "opening up" the grille of a 120mm fan opening before putting a BI Pro there.
PS: Yes I absolutely understand that we're the "outer fringe". I don't actually expect a hardware manufacturer to design something to suit us (big setup costs and no volume to speak of) - but the closet I get to understanding what hardware works for my particular application (and I'm pretty much focused on low noise first - then performance) - the more likely I am to find something that works for me.
I'm currently thinking about the fedco 2-775 (transpro 39 8320, 4seasons 2466). At just under 300 sq cm it had ought to have enough frontal area (although it's a bit thicker than I'd like), being 7.375"x6.25" it's a nice "square" shape that might work well in that lower-front position - 7.375 plus tanks is probably too high for a lot of cases, except maybe the Genie - and I can flip it sideways for a shorter but wider installation. Ah, well - off topic, but was what I was thinking about when I mentioned those numbers.
Oh - and the fact that it's $27 (rock auto) is going to have some folks assuming I got that core because it was cheap, right? :)

I was under the assumption that stacking fans did SFA; right or wrong?

I'm surprised no other manu's have done a top mounted unit like a koolance, only with decent performance. Im sure it wouldnt be that hard to make a 'roof rack' style arrangement for a case, using the rear psu screw holes, and a custom front faceplate (perhaps with a level indicator for some kind of res, hint hint) which screwed into the drive bays. Even if just to hold a 2x120mm rad, it would be worth it, I think. Id rather have something on top of my system than hanging off the back of it.

Neither - it's one of those "it depends" things.
If you've got a fan undervolted to the point that it's not pushing much air through a resistance (heater core), then stacking a second one may produce enough additional pressure to "fix" the problem. The reason to do this (rather than just add more voltage to the stalled fan) is that you might end up producing less noise with two stacked, undervolted fans.
Bear in mind that I'm basing this generalization on one data point, using panaflo L1A fan(s) pushing through a 6x6x2 heater core, where two fans at 5V (stacked) were quieter than a single one at 7V - and produced approximately the same cooling (same temp reading from MBM which may or may not mean anything).
If you haven't stalled a fan, I'd guess that stacking another fan won't help (unless you like fan noise - as it'll certainly add some of that...:))

bk
good explanation of your reasoning, Thanks
this is a vexing 'issue' as the solution is always case specific
I put a THermoChill 120 crossways in the front of a Lian Li with a fancy convoluted sheat metal plenum, but I could never concieve of 'intending' such a rad for that case.
A good modder can do almost anything - but such are not 'products' for a mfgr (my perspective)

I hear the low noise people speaking, but I think a low noise (designed) rad would not be acceptable w/o also some higher CFM performance capability - otherwise buy a Reserator no ?

Are the fins on a BIP/BIX/Thermochill corrugated? (Is that the term for the bumps in the middle that are found on heater cores?)

slit (louvered), std fin design

To the extent that the low noise people only want stock performance, and don't mind this big thing attached to their PC, then, yes, the reserator is a fine solution. For that matter, you could have a sealed system with some sort of heat exchanger in the bottom of one of those desktop fountains - and have a nicely disguised swamp cooler. :) It'd only work where evaporative cooling would work, so maybe Japan in the Summer is out - which might explain why we haven't seen one from Zalman.
On a more serious note - it is possible that a thin square rad shrouded with a single 120mm axial fan might be exactly what the low noise folks were asking for - particularly if the fan was well matched to the rad, case and plenum - and if the fan was typically undervolted (control it with an in-coolant thermistor, maybe - which would mean not one of those L1As I'm so fond of - maybe Papst axials if they're OK with PWM).
It's looking like the Genie might be a good candidate for this (large area in the front, looks (from the photos) that at least one of the bezels has big slots in the front.
And, yes, for low noise, I think the solution is going to be case specific as it'll be a matter of matching the fan performance/noise curve with the total system impedance.
Does it make sense for a manufacturer to play in this space? I dunno. A lot of what you'd be selling would be the knowledge of what components worked best together and you need to make a return on your time as well as whatever setup costs for shroud production. On the other hand, I think there is a market (particularly in Europe) for a low-noise, somewhat high performance, single box solution - but I'm not betting my bottom line on that.
Finally - I'll post a report on the 2-775 once I get one into a case. I guess I should try to get it into my current FS020 "test mule" as I can leave pump and block alone and get a hint as to how well it's working without spending the time pH does (beats me how he finds time for it - oh right it's the "big bucks" that keep getting mentioned here... :))

The way i see it:
- users want a WC system
- a working system (meaning that it works as intended by the manufacturer)
- low maintenance and practical system (serviceable)
- fully integrated with their existing hardware.

It seems that future adopters of WC are caught between the marketing from the manufacturers, the low noise cliché, the worry that their systems aren´t as good as their neighbours (can we call it "performance"?) and the bling factor.

Things are very mixed up.
The manufacturers have no new (definite) ideas, and so they try to target one product to suit everyone.
The public isn't very demanding, (excluding the Procoolers) so they don't give clear "orientations" that can be used in order to fine-tune a product.

So, without any guidance people use very different parts in order to achieve very different goals escaping from the real objective of a kit as created by the manufacturer.
Right now you can adopt a Tt WC system and swap parts in order to "gain some performance". Is this still low-end/low-noise/or performance at a budget?
The same applies to almost everything in WC.

In my opinion the best attempt so far is the one that Apple did.
Maybe it isn´t the best but reveals a concept and a definite idea how Apple interprets the notion of a WC system.

As for the radiators, known for their volume and their difficult relation with pc cases, one example of a good integration is this one from 1a-cooling.de
Again no performance criteria here.

http://www.1a-cooling.de/produkte/5z...5z280v1_27.jpg
http://www.1a-cooling.de/produkte/5z...5z280v1_31.jpg

You can see what it looks like on a Lian-li 6077 case on their web site . Just srool down and the picture is there.

thanks for tthe input guys
Jag, (some ?) mfgrs have plenty of new ideas, the trick is to identify viable markets
that European and US oriented kits should be different is I think obvious, and this eliminates much of the conflict

in-case solutions can be made more efficiently, but this is a different market completely

Bill, why should Euro and U.S WC products be that different?
When someone comes up with a good idea, that brings the best of them no matter the side, people will adopt it.

different order of priorities
in the most simplistic of terms:
low noise and high 'design' vs. low cost
Zalman sells VERY well in Europe

Given the thickness of those rads, I'd expect that to be a fairly noisy solution. I thought folks in Europe were big on low noise - or am I missing something here...?

You asked:"I was thinking along the lines of 'how does one do low noise (or size or cost) better ?"

What are your own ideas on this subject?
What do you envision as a future WC platform?

Being the two models different from one another, which one is easier to implement, the low cost or the low noise?

Zalman combines a no-hassle instalation with low noise, especially the first.

The 1a-cooling comes with two 80mm Y.S.Tech fans 23db. Noisy?

Not to me - if the total is 23dB. I'd suspect more like 26 for both fans together but even that isn't noisy (just not really quiet). It looked as though the fins were really deep and fairly close together - something that would require some pressure. Pressure being something axial fans don't supply unless they're cranked up (i.e. making lots of noise).

Papsts don't like PWM very much. I posted about it here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...6&page=2&pp=33


Very true. YSTech isn't exactly a quiet computing leader though. :rolleyes: Quiet computing is the eyes, er, ears of the beholder. But I am extremely doubtful that's 23dBA true to begin with.


DrCR


_________

I would not be surprised if teh fans in open air gave on 23 dba alone. But with all the restrictions i highly doubt it.

fans are tested in an anechoic chamber with nothing around them
google for procedures

The last part is really what needs to happen. I don't know if its just that they despise us or something, but most Europeans against overkill systems can only see their strengths and the other side's weaknesses. Although the same goes for a lot of us (not the despise part, I hope ;)). If there were two sections, it'd have to have severe moderation of topics/posts to prevent flamewars and 'fanboy' antics. The fact is, though, that people with big systems are being attacked for freedom of choice. Until several difinitive tests are done that all show about the same results, people just won't take off their imaginary crown & cede...


I don't think the requirements for the second section would hinge on the "Pro" idea, since this area is "extreme & phase change cooling" - if you can't understand that the title refers to pushing known boundaries, take more english courses. Just having 'phase-change' in there should announce the intentions of the section, since I've yet to hear of a person with the common European mindset use a promi for 'style', 'silence', and 'just enough' performance. Nothing says 'bling' like conformal waterproof coating & neoprene :cool: