LOL, anything is possible I guess! :D

I wish to write about my friend Jack. We were best of buddies, we grew up together and played hockey together as kids. I say "we were" because Jack is dead now. He blew his head off with a shotgun after what happened to him. This is his story.

Jack was a chubby kid. He tried to shed those pounds, but people still teased him relentlessly, which depressed him, so he ate, and the effect of his exercising was loss. One day he was out for a walk. He was walking along the streen listening to music, sweating away the pounds. It began overcast, and the clouds became omnimus. Anyway a man in a van pulled up and offered Jack a ride as it began to rain and Jack got in, thanking the man for his kindness. The man said his name was Player0. And asked where Jack lived, then Jack told Player0 his address, and the man said he knew how to get there.

As they drove, Jack relized they weren't heading towards Jacks house, infact they were going away from it. Jack said, "Are you sure you know where my house is?" Player0 said, "Shut up kid," as he grabbed a R22 Compressor and swung it towards Jacks head, then everything went black for Jack.

*****

When Jack woke up, he was in a basement. He could tell from the musky smell and the brick walls. He tried to move but his hands behind his back were bound by some sort of rope, affixed to what felt like a cold water pipe.

Player0 emerged from the beaded doorway, and said, "Lets have some fun now."

Jack never elaborated on what Player0 did to him that night, but said that he was zapped with a powersupply, burned with a Prescott, nipple peirced with a DMM, and violated with a dongle or some sort.

That night while Player0 played Quake 2, Jack ate threw his arm, freeing himself and he walk to the nearest Seven 11 and called a cab, as he didn't want to walk after eating so much.

*****

Later Jack told me this story, while I visited him in the hospital (being treated for eating his arm off). When he was released he killed himself.

I miss Jack very much, he was such a nice kid. All the elderly people in his neighbohood miss him as well as he did yard work for them and opened jars for them, and the orphans miss him as well because he gave them the money he earned for the yard work (he opened jars for a taste). It is a sad day for society, when Jack toed a shotgun. :(

Wow, you put a lot of thought in to male rape, violence and suicide...you should get that checked out ;)

LOL, f'n crazy ass canadians, aye!

I put half as much thought into that as you and your reviewers should about your reviews.

And here I thought it was only college GIRLS who got all experimental ;)

Wow Jaydee isn't that bad of a guy after all. :)

I guess I could learn a thing or two whilst i'm here. ;)

Heh, unregistered turned me on to http://www.iespell.com/. :)

Nice thought, but I don't use IE ;) FireFox all the way :)

anything else jd ?

I think I am tapped out.

Well I see Pro Coolings rep as a site for the "rude & obsessive" is being upheld.

BalefireX, your #6 post was a fine attempt to derail the bar-b-que. Nice try.

I wish WesM63's article was still up so I could read it.......but it's not. From what I read he did error in not factoring in the ambient temp differance but also admitted so clearly here and corrected it promptly.....and there may have been mounting issues to. OK, so as a new reviewer he had some problems. But does hosting a bar-b-que help? No. Does it do any harm I hear some thinking....yes it does.....a great deal of harm.......to this sites rep.

How much of his first post was based on the two posts before it........and how much from what he knew of this sites past rep for flaming the shit out of anyone falling short of the standards held to here? I'd bet a good deal of it, based on his first post, was due to past fire fests. But I don't have to bet on it you see, I know. I know as I'm the member he refered to in his first post who warned him not to make claims of accurate temps not supported by equipment up to the task. But I also told him he'd not be flamed to death if he was up front in stating his methods & his limitations. So much for Bill and JD's comments earlier regarding his opening disclaimers. He made that clear disclaimer to try'n avoid just what's gone on here. His honest mistakes were matches in the hands of arsonists. And Bignuts following first post was the 5 gallons of gas to make sure the fire stayed a hot one.

After that start nobody here had any hope to really offer any sort of positive critical advise. So you all just decried Wes's not licking up any drops of info you thought he should be gratefull for........BS!

Which is why this site is often dismissed at other sites as a place of extremist-know-it-alls who love being assholes. I don't recall who, and it doesn't really matter, but I've seen one member's sig when posting at other sites which states......."Pro Cooling.....It's true we are often a bunch of assholes." Like that's a badge of honor or some such.......yeah right.

I doubt anyone else here has met Wes63, I have. He's a hell of a nice guy when not under attack. Sorry none here had the chance to get to know that. Pro Coolings loss, though I'm sure far to many here won't beleive that.......which just goes to prove it more true.

Now regarding one of the "facts" posted in this mess.

JD posted a graph taken form the interactive block comparison chart.......but which jet did the author use (I honestly don't know).........and which jet is used in the interactive graph? If as JD suggested in one earlier post in this thread the one in the interactive is with the "stock" jet, and Wes63 was making use of the #4 or #5 jet......then how relavent is posting that graph?

I'd like to suggest that the one in the interactive graph be labeled so anyone can see what the data shown really represents. And in fact, IMO, it would be even better to list the TDX/RBX twice to show the differance the differant jets (original vs #5) make. Or would the number 5 jet perhaps show the TDX in a better light?

The biggest surprise to me regarding this thread is the revelation of PlayerO reading his members PMs. While not illegal here as it is in much of the EU and Aus. it is a contemptable act. Sad to see how little PlayerO understands how deeply it offends, or he'd never have braged of it in this thread & needled Cathar regarding it. As it becomes better known It'll cause a loss of some of his membership, keep other perspective members well away & generally result in a total lack of trust in his leadership @ LN.

Sigh,

BalefireX,

May the force be with you............

I very seldom post here any longer.........this thread is a good representation of why I don't. I've seen to many just like it.....

BE
someone may have a copy of it, but if you know Wes just ask him

its problem (for me) was the Luddite/anti tech tone of the intro - and everything that followed
some actually like technology, I think we are called 'geeks' by those with less interest
people who like technology get into it, they do not denigrate the tools or the individuals who use those tools
people who embark into new activities do not 'normally' presume to write articles about such, they learn FIRST
people writing for the public better get their article vetted by someone knowledgeable, or they may be called a fool

Wes led with his chin and got decked, a shame he could not have had you read the article first
I have to wonder what you would have said to him ?

Your way doesn't do any good, my way got a bad review pulled. Get it?
No, that post was completely stupid. I would say ignorant but he has been here long enough and so have you to know why it was stupid.
Yeah, a mistake that should not be made period. A second mistake that should not have been made period. He is NOT A NEW REVIEWER. This was the only review he planned to do. He sold the freaking system. His main error was doing a half assed review. This site's rep is not harmed a bit.
What the **** dude? He didn't state his methods and limitations. He blatantly said he didn't give a shit about proper testing and his review was "no bull" when in fact is was complete bull! The way he sated it was his way was the only way needed and proper testing was unnecessary. So cut the ****ing bull shit!
Who cares, it was a one off review. No point in teaching him anything, especially after making it blatantly clear he didn't care.
Seems to be getting things done.
No a loss at all. He made it very clear he didn't give a shit about the way ProCooling does things.
I asked the question which jets where used and no one answered. :shrug: After finding out his main mistakes it turned out to be completely irrelevant anyway.
Take it up with pH.
Your a good man BE but your way way off base on this one.

But does hosting a bar-b-que help? No. Does it do any harm I hear some thinking....yes it does.....a great deal of harm.......to this sites rep.

And how many flame wars have you participated in yourself here? You were vocal enough when it was my review and take on the TDX.

The biggest surprise to me regarding this thread is the revelation of PlayerO reading his members PMs. While not illegal here as it is in much of the EU and Aus. it is a contemptable act. Sad to see how little PlayerO understands how deeply it offends, or he'd never have braged of it in this thread & needled Cathar regarding it. As it becomes better known It'll cause a loss of some of his membership, keep other perspective members well away & generally result in a total lack of trust in his leadership @ LN.

It's sad that the ones who have a personal issue with me are coming here to shit on a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with me what so ever ;) There are many sites that filter and read PMs. There are lots of VB hacks for that specifically. I've never been anything but upfront about it. Hey, every character you type on my site comes in to my home and sits on my PCs. Even if I wasnt looking, it's impossibly dumb to think that I couldnt. So why hide that fact? Its in LiquidNinjas.com's agreement and forum policies that clearly states that PMs do not fall outside of moderator jurisdiction.

In Cathars particular case, his name was put on the VB scan list due to his previous actions on the site. I got his PMs which contained some ungreat things, and I warned him not to continue violating LN policies in private as well as public.

Cathar's just pissy with me so he wants to try and stir up shit and anti-Player0 and anti-LN sentiment, and it's all the same ones who flamed me before here, so I'm neither surprised nor concerned. He can come on here and start spraying as though he's made some great personal discovery about how horrible I am. He never would have known if I hadn't wanted him too. It's not like he read our policies where it's pretty clear. Everyone on LN has known about that forever.

Like I said, Im sure many many forums you visit do the same thing, only they may not let you know that. If you're worried about privacy, use PGP or something. What kind of privacy do you really expect by sending plaintext to the internet?

uh oh, posts are slowly deleting themselves from threads... damn black holes, eh

Hi Bill,

I first tried to respond not long after your post, but took to long & found the server down. So this is a bit late.

I did e-mail Wes & asked for a copy of the article, which he has sent me, so this response will be better informed.

When I met and talked with Wes some time ago he mentioned he intended to do this article. He also expressed his concern regarding how it could be torn apart here as he lacked the equipment & funding for equipment to match what's done here.
I told him at the time to clearly state his methods and how his readings of performances were done. To in fact disclaim any attempt for fine accuracy. While there is a defensive tone in his opening of the article, he did attempt to do so. I don't believe Wes had any intent to degrade or insult those more "into it" than he is, and Wes is more "into" computers than this article shows. And had he'd not had the problems with omitting the differance in ambient & mounting I doubt his intro would have been much of a issue.

I agree 100% with vetting/editing of a article, BEFORE it's posted, rather than after. Not only should the author desire such, any site posting such articles, should insist on it. This, it's now clear, is not the way things are done at LN.

Having read this thread as well as the article I'll say this much only (as hind sight is 20/20). In future I'll suggest to anyone who hasn't high accuracy testing equipment that temp readings be left out. With the differances possible due to motherboard temp readings it's mission impossible to do so without spewing BS. And no matter how clearly the limitations of the set up are posted in the article they'll be torn to shreds if temp readings are given. I'll tell them further that if they feel they need some way of making a comparison to do so via max stable O/C readings. I've no doubt of them still have'n negative commentary by someone, but that's the only option I see. Aside from limiting the review to things like ease of mounting, bling ....ect.

EDIT: But on the other hand I rather expect they'll feel they have to have temps......they're expected by readers....... And I don't blame them for feeling that way, as I myself expect numbers not just ease of mouting & bling reports.......fluff.

So I guess that along with what I told Wes I'll really push the idea of getting SOMEBODY to act as editor for them, and make it the most expert person they know in the area they'll be doing the article in.

Perhaps you'd like me to suggest you Bill as you're one of the best in the field of water cooling.......;) Hehe......

and there was a bunch of activity not on the forums
live and learn, hopefully

If you can share some of/all this, please do. I'd be interested in any further info about this.

sorry guys some weirdness with php and mysql and the server. This was the best Joe could do; other alternative was keep the posts and PMs from the last day but lose ALL attachments and the ability to make attachments and have a messed up db that the forums are running on.

As far as that article goes, as I said I was insulted enough by the introductions firm stance against technical correctness that I didn't read it too carefully. I get the impression that the wbs were tested in a way that really only tested suitability for mounting on A64s w/o heatspreaders though rather than actual relative performance when correctly configured. If that's the case then it should be pulled because it's a flawed test.

Look guys no one here is saying that you have to have formal training in thermodynamics and thousands in equipment to post a web review. But why would you attack the work of people who DO spend money on equipment and who are following (generally speaking) the testing methods appropriate to evaluate the products? It just makes you look like a fool in my opinion.

Fact is that..... NO ......sites I spend much time on don't do this, further they condem it. Sure I know it's possible for you to do so......excuse me for expecting you to have more class and act with more honor.......

As to your reception here over the review you did. Yep, I expected a hell of a lot more from a site owner than someone posting a first review. As many here would/can tell you I'm far more often found posting for greater calm and reasoned debate. Your case was a exception to that for me.

And it'll not be just Cathar calling you over reading PM's in the future I expect. Not after the way you brag of it here......so expect it........defend it even.....if you really still think you can......& watch your sites traffic drop each time it comes up...... :evilaugh:

Craig
the e-mails and decision making were not mine
it was a flawed test and was pulled for that reason by the site
EOS

had the author more experience, or relied on those who did, this would not have occured
had the site a functional editorial/review process, this would not have occured
several lessons, as usual

pH,

Look, as the one who urged Wes to make a very clear opening statment regarding the limits of his rig as a testing set up and such, I'll take much of the heat for that. I'll also try to be more complete regarding such, as I posted to Bill in future.

Wes informed me that he did use the original jet in the TDX, not the #4 or #5. So JD's posted graphing of the two blocks did/does have relavance.

But could you Please add that jet info to the interactive graph here? Even better also add the TDX & RBX performance with the #4 & 5 jets.....or at least the #5 which has the highest performance with many pumps. Such additions will also make it clearer how to best make use of the DD blocks.

JD,

Even before Bill's last post I had to wonder just how much influance your & others flaming had in getting the article pulled.

Now if you read Bill's last post I would suggest it had none.

I know you get very flustrated with reviews that don't have high accuracy. But do hope you'll further consider which is of more value in altering that, reason or fire.

I myself may have to try doing a review of some facet of water cooling. (Highest possible performance + lowest noise possible......at the same time) Would no doubt be a learning experiance......and could possibly give you a few laughs as well. I will try to limit the entertainment/humor value however. I hope you'll forgive me that .......;)

The #5 does not have better performance than the #4; it performs better at a given flow rate but it's restrictive enough that in real loops it performs on par with the #4. The #4 is the nozzle that DD SHOULD be shipping the TDX with; it's better than their stock nozzle for almost all cases.

I didn't test the additional nozzles on the RBX because frankly I didn't recommend people buy the RBX. It was too narrow to mount reliably on the XPs and it didn't properly cover the IHS on P4s and A64 (as per Intel and AMD specs).

Thanks for the info and response on this pH.

Fair enough in regards to the RBX. Could you just post the curve for the TDX & #4 jet then & label the RBX & TDX curves now shown as being with the original jet? Thanks pH.

Sorry to further develop a hijack--

@Player0:

I don't believe you wanted him to know... You messaged me out of the blue with comments about your past spats with Cathar. The hair raiser was when you made a statement in reference to a discussion between Cathar and myself we were conducting via PM. I asked Cathar through email if he had talked to you and we were both... agitated... when it was discovered he didn't directly relay the content or nature of our discussions to you. The thread calling you out on the "monitoring" resulted in his being banned from the forums-- you stated past "history" led to your decision... "history" perhaps hinted at in Cathar's statement above.

Regardless, my only intent of this post was to bring to light my disbelief in your statement that you let him (or anyone else) know you were looking at his PMs. I believe you slipped and thats the end of the story.

Good day to all.

*edit: I don't know if Cathar is still banned from LN... I haven't been back to the forums.

For all practical purposes the TDX with #4 performs the same as the RBX w/ #1. Here's a graph though for the hell of it:

http://phaestus.procooling.com/blah.gif

I gotta go work out and then go shopping; bbl

Thanks for posting this. Though his bragging in regards to this ugly pratice is a indicater that he's little regard for what his users think or the privacy of those folks.

But those learning of it will be far less likly to go to LN, no matter what he may think.

And if Cathar is banned there that's a major loss to his readership, not that he'll care.

Beleive what you want. Im not here to stir opinions. It's completely untrue but I have no need to argue any of it to death with the few folks who have personal issues with me. There are there other people responsible for LNs direction. No decision has ever been exclusively been my own. I am the host/programmer. Most everything else is left up to other people. But its easy to be ignorant of that and scapegoat it all against me. Dont mind, I know who has issues with me, and theres far fewer of them than the ones that respect what i might have to say. LN thrives, thats a fact. I dont spend all day reading the 1000s of PMs that go back and forth. Cathar was not banned for 'exposing' some great consipiracy. I have posted/banned/warned many others before Cathar about PM contents. Fact, searchable on LN, certainly provable. If you dont like the policy, don't go to LN. Most people dont have to hide their comments because they aren't false, backstabbing, and spiteful. Yeah, I was extremely pissed when I read those PMs, so lets not act all innocent about what they contained. Spent an hour doing my best to answer your questions, only to be accused of whoring DDen products (wasnt even recommending them in the post). There was a vote between several people to ban Cathar...wasnt my sole decision.

I'm done with this conversation. If you dont like how LN is run, does reviews, then just dont go there. It doesnt hurt me. This is a hobby, not a business. Im not trying to compete with ProCooling. I read here all the time. LNs focus is different, we're more of a beginner site. I still reference people with tougher questions over here. I know I havent been liked here since, you know, I tried to have my own opinion and now theres a handful of people here who dispise me for it. Well, whatever. I couldnt be concerned less. It's the Holidays, I have better things on my mind.

My reason for posting here was to help defend Wes who is a friend of mine. And to explain to those ignorant of this fact, that I had nothing to do with the contents of said review. Beyond that, those with personal problems with me just want to take this in any direction they can to discredit me and LN. So my part here is over. In the end, nothing really changes, so give it up. I'm out.