What kind of price point are we looking at here in the UK Dave?

Hans, email we directly, I have some good news for you :)

I don't know price, I am an engineer and have nothing to do with sales.
I only work at C-Systems about 10 hours a week as I still work at AVT full time.

Risky,I am the only support staff at C-Systems, I can honestly tell you we have replaced more 750 model pumps because of people forcing a plastic NPT fitting into the impeller, then damaged seals. This is why we placed the inlet port on the top with the new pump. We also believe it will save space and it is what our customers want. People often email me pictures of there set-up (please continue) and 90% will have an elbow on the inlet. The MAG inlet is less restrictive then a 90deg elbow.

You are the first one to suggest this is considered a negative feature, if I receive more feedback in this direction, I will discuss adding another model. I see no technical issue with this, just be aware the pump will be longer.

Why not just add a small integral-to-the-housing reservoir over the inlet? Returned flow can then come in from whatever angle without restriction. If these are going into OEM situations where there are flexible hoses, then you need some kind of reservoir anyway, to make up for losses through the tubing. You could even integrate a pair of contacts at the "minimum fill level" and let your OEMs use a capacitive circuit to warn the user to refill (or whatever).
Just a thought, of course...

I have many times thought the same thing. What would really be slick is if you could get the whole thing to mount in two 3.5 inch bays. You could use part of that space for a small res and the rest of it could be for some sort of foam/rubber insulation so as to quiet the pump down. If you were creative you could use the front panels for a rheobus. This doesn't sound like an ida for C-systems but instead a company like frozencpu (they make their own 3.5 and 5.25 bay devices). If someone ends up doing it, just remember it was my idea.

I wonder if a solution will show as an aftermarket part. There are already two solutions for the DDC in germany. One that gives and axial inlet in addition to the usaual two and one that integrates a header tank.

We have an OEM unit with a larger round o-ring style port / mount for tank intergration.

The port/mount is about 1.5" diameter to provide a good seal surface and support the tank since it is plastic, which you must not over stress.

This is why there are 4 extra tapped holes on the back of the pump, even on the retail version.

Sounds good. Will wait to see what shows up out there...

Dave - hate to pester but both CSP-750 MKIIs that I have failed. I'm not interested in just replacing them with more CSP-750s to relive the experience. Is there any option to trade them in for the new models?

As stated earlier in the thread.

dave I suppose that it'll be up to distributor as to which pump they order?

We had more extra components come in this morning, so I should be able to get at the retail pages Sunday or early next week.

I would also like to inform my design changes for a back mounted inlet have been approved. The changes I suggest will be tested next week, and the pump will not increase in size. We should have the new model up in 2-3 weeks.

Once tested, you will have the option of which type of inlet you wish, and the parts can be interchanged.

In the future, please provide other suggestions. I have little to do on C-Systems retail time, answer 1-2 emails a day so I can use something else to do :)

that'd be easier if we had some pics or some more info. ;)

Good Work!

How will the back mounted inlet effect the pump's performance? Will it increase head or flow rate? With the DDC the axial mounted inlet led to decreased head with an increase in flow rate. I'd imagine that you'd see similar results with a back mounted inlet on the new CSP-MAG. Though it is all speculation at this point.

Dave: who did you say was going to be first in North America to carry the pumps? I'd like to get my hands on one to test it out. What sort of price point will we be looking at in the states?

Suggestion: Don't make the sucker out of aluminum in the future and you'll make a lot of people happy. Try Derlin. It's a plastic that can be easily milled. Danger Den is currently using it on their maze 4 GPU blocks. It is basically inert and I can't imagine that it is much more expensive than aluminum. I'm sure that 90% of enthusiasts would pay an extra $5 to avoid problems with galvanic corrosion.

The Flaw List:

All we have so far (in our observations) is a little bit of exposed aluminum around the threads. Does anyone else with a cynical eye want to add something?

Max,
I think the aluminum case is still best for threaded fittings. Given there is little exposed area and the Anolok finishing is very corrosive resistant.

It is unlikely the back inlet will make much difference in flow. The problem with the DDC is likely inlet size, not the angle. The MAG has a 3/8 inlet, and it is offset from the pre-chamber. This allows turbulent flow of impeller to decrease any losses.

The bearing test went fine, I will post PQ curves for both models next week.

Speaking of the DDC, Dan keeps asking me why we engineers work our butts off to design a 50,000 hour pump, when you guys are going to mod it?

You do understand the mod's you guys are making will have an effect on total operating rating, with both electrical components and bearings?

I said we would have retail pages up this week, but I screwed up the WEB site in a big way. C-Systems has a REAL WEB master working on it now. He is changing it all to php.

I think you can see some of his work at c-systems.ca/new

So is there any reason to believe the DDC inlet mod will significantly decrease its service life?

From the little I've seen (spent a couple of years a long time ago working on high-pressure hydraulics), fitting threads, particularly for tapered fittings, are the one point where a surface treatment will fail.
You are supplying the male fittings as well? Something softer than the Anolock surface?
Also - is Anolock electrically driven? Or is it a acid-dye process? If it is electrical, I'd be concerned with getting a good coating on the thread root of female threads, which, I think gets a good workout in tapered fittings - not just the thread flanks...
I'm sure you went through all this - sorry to be an armchair quarterback...

Heh.... the answer to that can be found by looking at the market you're selling to... Note here the percentages are VERY rough and plucked atop my head as a "for instance"...

1) Out of the current population that use watercooling, 5% are purists or are fully aware of what they are doing (the ranks of Cathar etc). 20% are getting there (the likes of meself). The remaining 75% have it cos their mates have got it and it makes them feel like their willy is smaller until they get the same, or because a magazine says they should buy it.

2) So, out of that 100%, you then have a second breakdown - the honesty barrier. You have those that'll buy a product, leave it at stock to retain it's warranty, and if they DO decide to mod it, will do so once warranty has expired or will leave it at stock permanently. You then have those that'll buy a product, mod it straight away and completely abandon the warranty and if it dies, it dies. Those two groups probably account for 45% MAXIMUM of the watercooling market, and are generally those who if they DO need to RMA it, will use the manufacturer's RMA over the reseller's RMA if it exists. The remaining chunk consists of those who'll happily buy it, mod it, invalidate warranty by doing so, item fails, they'll remove mods, spend days restoring it to it's factory state, then RMA it anyways. In Europe, inevitably the replacement is issued by the reseller as that's where it got returned to, and that's what EC law dictates. It's not cost effective to be forwarding RMAs over to the US etc.... cheaper to write them off entirely in a lot of cases due to shipping costs etc.

3) On here you have the small international representation of those resellers who prefer the honesty approach imo. The thing being, what those on here say is generally taken as the rule of thumb once it's filtered from here to other sites. Most of what gets said about a product on here will spread down the grapevine, basically leaving it in a state that if one of a number of ppl on ProCooling Forums said it, then it's not to be argued with, taken as correct, and becomes adopted as a new law... this isn't a BAD thing at all.... it's a superb thing due to the quality of info and the strong residence in FACTUAL based info backed up by consolidated testing and methodology... so altho at the moment your efforts to design a 50k hour pump is primarily for the few, once it gains the approval of those few the word will swiftly spread, and everyone will want a willy as big as the guys on here have.

Summary: If ProCooling announces a product worth having, the grapevine will do the rest and the product will inevitably sell. If ProCooling slates a product, the same effect, and the product won't sell... by satisfying the few, you eventually satisfy the many. And hence sales on the CSP-750 were never as they were originally expected to be...

As long as your own back is covered by ensuring everything you say is factual and proveable thru testing within the market sector to which the product is aimed, you have nothing to worry about... and your consumer market and resellers will have nothing to worry about.

Note: 2 other folks read this prior to posting and all said it was confusing to read, but I can't word it any better in my current state - you get my drift tho hopefully...!

Seemed clear enough to me marci.

a second here
its the factual basis for starters, THEN the ability/willingness/freedom (?) to admit one's errors and provide a meaningful warranty

an interesting example should transpire in the next day or two illustrating this last point
- and may be considered a defining difference as compared to the activities of other pump mfgrs

As a contrary case in point, there were a lot of negative comments about the reserator here - but a lot of folks seem to have bought them (as judged by the comments over on the silent pc watercooling forum - and by the "me too" products appearing.)
Given the shape of these things, you may be spot on about the "willy" stuff, though... :)

the Resorator is a BIG seller in Europe, as silence is more appreciated in that marketplace

but.
 

depends.
in portugal, great majority (that i've seen) has these, or these.
alot cheaper. full kit (AC,Alpha, etc) costs about half a reserator kit.
not successful.

note that bi rads were, for a long period of time, here, very expensive.
not anymore (thankfully).

not a general consensus ?
good, yet quiet*, at least?
still, "good" can mean sufficient in most cases, not particulary efficient.
winner there.

* with all relativity.

Very good post Marci and as an engineer, much of what you suggest scare's the hell out of me :)

On the other hand, as a customer service rep, I must agree with many of your comments. I do however disagree with your summary, also using the 750 as example.

If one where to read this board, thanks in large part to slam campaign by we all know who, the 750 would be assumed to have low sales. In fact AVT was never able to meet demand, and even now sales still exceed several thousand pieces per month. We no longer sell the unit to the general public for many of the reason you suggest, well our industrial customers are very happy and our market for the product continues to grow, thanks more too personal experience then forum comments.

Hopefully there is simple answers that will allow manufactures to protect themselves from RMA's do to abuse and modifications. It would be nice if Laing could just add a seal to prevent disassembly, but then the issue of how to clean results?

In the long term I believe these issues will soon go away, given the products I seen developed at AVT, C-Systems and have read about from other companies.
The trend is clearly for very long term fully sealed systems in which any modification will clearly be noticed. I believe this type of OEM application is what the DDC was developed for?

Dan is always lecturing me about the difference between an OEM, and a general retail product. Marci's post clearly indicates the real engineering concern differences between them are.

**I forgot why I came in here. The C-Systems retail pages should be back up this weekend. They are still working on the new site so there maybe daily changes.
Sorry for any problems that resulted from my bad WEB work.

"thanks in large part to slam campaign by we all know who"
be honest Dave, I never described a failure because I never had a failure

please:
every failure/problem described with a C-Systems pump was by someone OTHER than myself
- killing the messenger ?

if you think this is a forum where problems are NOT discussed, you are in error
a problem anticipated is, potentially, a problem avoided
so it is logical that a new product would be analyzed critically, and by me VERY CRITICALLY due do my poor experience with pumps and pump mfgrs (now changing thankfully)
- the C-Systems pump did about as predicted, but note that I understood more about the application than (perhaps ?) C-Systems did, certainly this is changing as can be seen from your posts

-> N.B. Swiftech is not a pump mfgr, we buy the things
but with lots of bad experience we do know some of the pitfalls
Swiftech and C-Systems are not competitors, you should be more concerned with Laing products than my commentary; there is your benchmark

I believe you just made my point.

I understand there are several ports related to problems with other companies products, including your own, and yet no one from our group is posting links too them?

C-Systems will like dismiss me over this post, but I need time of for spring hunt anyways.

Dave,
I've no wish to generate problems for you, its pretty much an intellectual process for me

are you referring to the Laing DDC ?
after considerable effort the 'facts' are now known and Monday all will be revealed - and I think you WILL be surprised
-> compare to post #34

lets let this go until Tuesday, I would be interested in your comparison between 2 pump mfgrs

again Dave, I am not a competitor of yours - that is Laing
but when I see clearly an impending train wreck, I speak
don't really know why other than to be able to say later "I told you so", apparently my howling at the moon had little effect on your sales

your concern is with your pumps, my concern is with the acceptance of WCing
any pump failures hurt us all
and I really do not like post #34

I have a pair of mark II's where one has died and the other makes such a racket as to be unusable. My system is neiter restrictive (1/2" ID) nor am i running the pumps in series. There is no corrosion in my water, and the only thing i can conclude is that they BOTH have succumbed to manufacturer defect. Where can i send these back to "upgrade" to this new series?

As i paid good money for each of these pumps, i do hope that i will not be expected to pay a fee to have a warranty issue replaced.

Thank You.

gazorp
I would suggest that you not do RMA stuff in a presumably technical thread

PM Dave or contact your vendor

I still don't see why it would be terribly difficult to use a soft, millable plastic in place of aluminum.

I don't have a perfect memory, but I think I recall a couple of people posting about corrosion inside of their CSP 750s. Anyone else remember that? Even if this is not the case, anondization is not a perfect process. Some parts of the pump housing may not recieve adequate coating. You could stop the whining of a lot of people (and make some of these threads a lot shorter) if you avoided using aluminum.

Has anyone noticed that swiftech is moving away from alumium parts at a slow but steady rate? Remember the 5000 series tops? Anondized aluminum. You know what the 6000 series tops are made of? Copper. Bill isn't doing this arbitrarily. Any aluminum in a loop with any copper will cause problems at some point. At least that's my view and the view of many others. Because of this, my MCW-50 will soon be replaced by a danger den Acetal Maze 4 GPU (no offense bill, I just feel a bit more comfortable with a nearly inert derlin top as opposed to a potentially corrosive aluminum top).

Dave: I'm nit picking because it's late here, I am alone, and I am bored. I wish c-systems the best with the CSP-Mag. In fact it would be a welcome competitor to the DDC.

....Gasps for breath after long, rambling post....