I do understand what you are saying and agree with you. Gist being, that it is one thing to copy wholesale, another to copy and at least tweak it abit so as to not appear copied.

But this thread is getting a bit heated and off-topic, it does appear that everyone has had their say so perhaps getting back to the actual discussion of having a rad sub-forum may be in order.

The idea of re-naming the waterblock design sub-forum into a "component design" sub-forum has merit in itself and would be IMO one of the better ways to go abt implementing it.

The truth is being a marine has absolutely nothing to do nor does it add to the mix. Using it to describe some seemingly arbitrary honor code does more discredit than anything else.

So please, let's just keep that kind of babble away from this.

At the end of the day, its actually a trading firm as far as its activities are concerned. I'm certain all the patriotic banter falls flat when you realize where he's actually sourcing his clones.

A radiator sub-forum can be a good idea. The truth is, whatever improvements you apply at this stage has a considerable amount of engineering and tooling implementation required.

There's the 100's of hours of wind tunnel testing and fan spec validation one would need to do and still make sure it'd do well enough when people insist on their own ventillation options.

These things aren't cheap and I doubt PC radiator manufacturers would be willing to let such data go so easily with the usual suspects just waiting to get their powder-burned paws on them.

Note I use the term "PC radiator" manufacturers. These heat exchangers aren't just "tubes and fins" as simplistic immitators would think.

^^Agree...

I’m not going to keep kicking this horse and this got way too off topic. If you want to discuss this further you can email me or PM me.

Hi Willie

the crux of the issue is data
w/o data its all conjecture and degrades immediately to debating opinions
and the data is so costly that none who have such will release it

worth observing is that the designer does not have to be the mfgr, the QP rads are a case in point
and, like Willie, there is another big step up ahead

if you users would like to contribute, state what you would like to see in a new rad
- then watch the scramble to make the product, IF someone thinks there is a real market
(and not 6 extremists hyperventilating with each other, I'm reminded of the 3 fan rads)

there will be a significant amt of comparative data released shortly, by the same source as ever
performance data, not radiator 'design' data; good for inferences however

OK! OK! I have to clock in on this thread.

I'm just a lowly dedicated watercooling overclocker.

This thread is going to lead to the end of the disimination useful information to ME and many more like me.

I've seen it happen elseware (IDENInsider.com...gone!)

Moderator(s), It's a VERY interesting thread, but it's only sending this board downhill.

And you guys...forget your personal beliefs, trials and turbulations...I (we?) don't care.

A thread in rad design..GREAT!, let's go!

how does something end before it has begun ?
no engn data has been posted on specific liquid/air heat exchangers, none - ever
you have no real use for engn data, what you can use is objective performance data
just treat rads as a black box, works just fine for wcing systems builders (for those that understand the data)

Nice to see you up and running again Bill, motivating as ever.

Radiator engineers are a very cautious bunch when it comes to making conclusive statements, its always a lot of testing, tweaking, prototyping, testing, tweaking, prototyping, tweaking...and on and on.

Fundamental factors remain the same, waterside/airside surface area, airside pressure drop, flow resistance...how far discussions go will depend on what people are willing to contribute along those lines.

Well, my first reaction was to join in on you guy's esoteric flame fest by sitting all the reasons why engr data would be useful to me..I am an engr with significant experience in liquid transfer and heat exchange specs, design and installation in two industries....but

You're right, other than a few people here most would go right over their head....so

Let's get on with a discussion of the various pros/cons of radiator designs AND performance data!

I'm only trying to keep this forum useful to the people that are so grateful for it's existence.

on the front burner
had to go back and delete a rad that was covered by an NDA which I had forgotten
pretty soon

"Radiator engineers are a very cautious bunch when it comes to making conclusive statements, its always a lot of testing, tweaking, prototyping, testing, tweaking, prototyping, tweaking...and on and on."

designing rads is a humbling experience, sooo many ways to do it wrong

I think you have to specify what kind of radiators are normally suited for which application. The flat tube and serpentine fin design was our configuration of choice for the Black Ice due to its high internal surface area, conductivity, and dimensional compression.

Oil coolers are designed to tackle the viscosity of the intended medium.

Folks in the HVAC industry have other radiator types which they use, like round tube force-fitted across flat fins and heated to expand. This suits chilled water flowing through them as cooling coils.

Similar configurations using thicker-walled copper capillary tubes are reserved for use in vaporphase applications.

Charge air coolers (intercoolers) are designed to be air-to-air heat exchangers to cool down compressed air.

billbartuska, we can have say the Black Ice Xtreme radiator in one configuration (specified fin density, specific louvre geometry, tube type etc.) and will perform better given a specific set of paramaters such as right amount of airflow or perform worse say given a very constricting waterblock with an inadequate pump.

Although I agree with Bill that there is essentially no useful engineering data on radiators, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the home-made radiators that some people have put together.

We can get into discussions about radiator design, but the bottom line is that due to cost and performance, a heatercore will always come out on top.

For those interested, the reason that any engineering data would not be usefull, is simply because many radiators are tested for their intended purpose (a car), and the testing environment isn't anything near what is involved in a PC, nor would it be measured the same way.

Actually the tests done are similar to that of automotive radiators save that you'd need more sensitive airflow sensors and higher tolerance flowmeters.

"but the bottom line is that due to cost and performance, a heatercore will always come out on top."

where on earth do you get this stuff Ben ?
please substantiate with data

Considering the cost factor thanks to scales of economy, very basic manufacturing processes and the general size of heatercores, the performance-price punch is pretty remarkable.

Now since the industry is "expanding" the issue of aesthetics, ease of use, and versatility are added to the soup, the "added value" comes into play.

W dissipated/$
or
W dissipated/in²/$
my preference is: W diss/in²/db(A)/$

don't know where you're new products are heading Willie, but I can beat a heater core easily if there is a noise limit ~34 db(A) (as that is what I design for)

AAAHHHH! That feels alot better.

I just rec'd (literally 20 min ago) an EBM/Papst D2E133-DM67-78 blower. It will be tested with an Eheim 1048 and an Iwaki MD-20RZ(T). I'm looking for the balance between noise and cooling. The Papst will be variable speed, but if it has to blow a hurricane (non engr term!) to work with the Eheim then I"m stuck with the noise of the Iwaki. It'll probably take a week or two to complete the testing. I also have a BIX3 to throw into the mix. I'll post results.

Dr. Cather: Any comments on an Iwaki with a Storm?
I currently run DD TDX, Maze4 and NV-68(for SLI) on a 1-A Cooling Blacklord 240 (W/the Eheim) and it ain't enough.

See, at this stage with the thread getting back on track, I have a lot of ideas and thoughts that I normally would feel free to contribute, but now I'm unwilling to do so at all. That is the real source of any frustration that I feel.

My apologies to all for the extended outbursts, but the whole point of that exchange was to highlight what I feel is the malaise that is besetting many technical forums around the globe. What was once the realm of enthusiasts sharing ideas now becomes a free market research tool for the opportunistic.

This is where such a forum has strong merit. If the forum is such that forum members and enthusiasts can express ideas about what they'd like to see and how they'd like their water-cooling experience to improve, then it's a big help.

The dissemenation of engineering level research and development data is sadly very unlikely to happen, which is sad for the avid enthusiasts who truly want to understand what it is that goes into building a better radiator for their needs.

Totally off-topic mate. You want the best out of a pump matched with the Storm (or most other blocks for that matter). Go pick up an Iwaki RD-20 from mjgent and run it at 20-22v with a 24v Meanwell PSU by turning down the voltage output trim pot on the PSU. Fiddle with the voltage range until you find the best balance, but 20-22v is an ideal range to start with.

Oh - and boost your radiator capacity too. Probably another 3-4C or so to gain there given the size of your heatload.

"What was once the realm of enthusiasts sharing ideas now becomes a free market research tool for the opportunistic."

perhaps this is an awareness issue, I have long regarded procooling, and in the past OCF and OCAU, as a resource
e.g. all of my early articles' content were debated and discussed extensively on OCAU (prior to Cathar)
e.g. beerhunter (I think ??) turned me on to Laing pumps, and that was all it took !
(well, that and our previous pump supplier dumping on us at the same time)
many many other examples of my using info from the forums

to what purpose Cathar were your polls on OCAU ?
paying attention to the forums is simply good business at this stage

wrt R&D, such budgets are a % of a company's gross, it is a stretch to think that a small company has the same resources as a larger one which is, lamentably, why corners are cut
I do believe people should make their own products and not blatant copies

Bill, was just merely highlighting the distinction between general market trend research for which forums are always going to be good for, as opposed to the more serious technical discussions for which (some) enthusiasts hunger for, but which can never be a reality in an open forum due to predatorial manufacturers seeking a cheap way to R&D.

My polls at OCAU were beneficial to understand the nature of the marketplace, but they're not intended to be an in-depth technical discussion on the merits of why one solution is better than another.

What I guess I'm saying Bill is this. Work by people like yourself (prior to Swiftech), and others, is rare as hens teeth and more precious than gold in this environment.

Just a lament - that's all.

Pretty sure he was talking about "DIY" radiators. I highly doubt there are to many people that could build a radiator better than a $20 heater core. And that is why I see little reason for a dedicated radiator construction forum. Maybe a dedicated general radiator forum. For installs of commercial and DIY stuff.

How is it I am not involved in any of these arguments lately? :D

Also glad to see BillA back around.

I always admire most of your efforts, Bill ;)

And yes, there's that bloody noise limit and the perceptive ceiling of 34dB to consider if you're a PC radiator manufacturer which is not even an issue with cars.

What heatercores also benefit from is the fact that they have a large frontal surface area. Generally if you're willing to extend beyond the 120mm base dimensions as provided by the fans, it's a no brainer that you can have a good performing heat exchanger without the need to add to the number of rows.

You can always design a better heatercore. In fact one of the reason why heatercores are preferred to be made out of brass/copper is because they need to be made to fit within the A/C ventillation loop of an automobile.

Moreover, brass/copper are naturally bacticidal hence minimizing that dank stench you normally smell in your A/C.

@billbartuska, without going into comparative details to avoid conflicts of interests, your radiator appears to use a stacked fin configuration normally reserved for use in heavy duty vehicles such as trucks and tractors.

I could be wrong but I'm just looking at the pics online, so feel free to englighten me if the radiator configuration is different. You're looking at 0.045 - 0.050 mm thick fins which have the first and subsequent rows of tubes offset from each other by around half the tube pitch of the first row.

Meaning the second row of tubes begin in between the first tube and the second tube on the first row.

Productionwise this is a very laborious affair. As the fins are first stacked in a fixture, and then flat tubes are pushed through them one by one.

There is nothing wrong with this design as it is meant specifically to provide very rugged structural support in an engine bay that would make ragdolls out of typical radiators, well at least those constructed for light duty.

This creates a high airflow/pressure requirement for effective cooling. So you may need to have stronger fans with a small shroud to raise the fans a little to maximize the frontal surface area of your radiator.

Folks please understand, the PC radiator biz is relatively young and is taking a lot of cues from the existing heat exchanger industries.

Because the truth is, if you're wanting to build a totally radically different radiator, you're going to end up trading your grandchildren souls to make the proper toolings and even more for raw materials which aren't going to be supplied (initially) in reasonable volumes (meaning thousands of tons) to be priced within commercial reach.

Speaking of rads... Is there a single 120mm version with an inlet or outlet at top and an inlet or outlet on the botton on the opposite side? make my tube routing a hole lot easier...

A small single pass one? China made ones? ........

This one? http://www.xspc.biz/r120sxbig.jpg

A lot of folks like to DIY. Sure, you might not be able to beat the cost or form factor of a heater core, or the performance of a professionally designed and meticulously engineered specialty radiator. But often we eccentrics like to do things for our own reasons. Sometimes those reasons might be an indication of an untapped market, other times they are just wacky.

I doubt anyone is going to start marketing Galileo case or reservior thermometers just because I think they are neat, nor do I imagine there is a big demand for Archimedes Screw pumps. That won't stop eccentric and wacky folks from finding them nifty, or figuring out how to fit them into a system. On second thought, the Galileo thermometers could be marketable. I wouldn't hold my breath on the Archimedes screw pumps, though.

Looking through past forum posts about DIY radiators I see a lot of interest in passive and semi-passive setups, artistic setups, chimneyed setups, and a few things just really ghetto. Why would folks spend so much time, effort, and dollars on such things (often the parts alone from the local hardware shop are more than a heater core!)? Some folks just want something that is unique, some want the satisfaction of DIY, whatever.

Look at the blocks folks make. An argument could be made that there is no need for a block design forum. Most folks do not have the knowledge or the equipment to manufacture a reasonable waterblock. Waterblocks are commodity items, how are you as the hobbyist going to beat the performance of a Storm (let alone even a Swifty 6000) and the price of the Swifty 6000 series? Why bother?

The answer is because unlike you folks whose livelyhood and careers are firmly rooted in the intricacies of the business, and are pushing the envelopes in all directions, a lot of us just don't care as much as you do, at least not all the time. We'll use your components, and we greatly appreciate them and your efforts, and have the utmost respect for you. But damn it, sometimes we just want to do something wacky or unique. We know the odds of us doing it better than you are vanishingly small, but we don't care. Our inner child wants to be able to point and say "I made that!".

TNT2bluz

I have already added shrouds to the fans and did notice a 4-5C drop which makes sense with the staggared tube design, a little more air pressure with a restrictive (air) rad had a larger than expected effect.

And Cather

I compared the pump curves of the RD-20 and MD-20RZ(T) and they are very close. I chose the MD pump for electrical simplicity since I'll be using a 120V blower with it anyway.

Thank you both for your comments.

You mean like this one jaydee?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18.../Rads1x120.jpg

I have one myself, it's made by a guy here in Brazil.
_______
TaTs

^^ Bingo. That's the big brick wall where you just have to clutch your asscheeks, say a prayer and take the plunge... and make sure ya get it right first time.

LOL. That sounds like something you learned doing this:
http://www.minimotosidecars.org/site...e/DSCF1771.jpg

shiny side up...shiny side up...shiny side up...

Edit: Which takes bigger stones? Radiator design/production or riding around at triple digit speeds with your arse in the breeze?
Whooo nelly!