*Lowers and Shakes head*. WTF is that thing. A water block ontop of a HS with a pelt in there? http://www.bluecooling.com/product_BTMS.htm

Patent Pending? Bahahahahaha. They can have it!


Damn, those guys in that forums need to set the crack pipe down for 5 minutes and actual think about how a water cooling system works.

My head is starting to hurt again......

Hehe. I've got a lot more where that came from. :rolleyes:

I just remembered the BTMS because someone asked about it on the overclockers.com forum. Even the boys at the [H]ard thought that thing was horrible. :D

Don't really want to drag this thread up, but what the hey!

Enjoy

8-ball

I like the instant calculus in my head thingy. I think that is where much of the confusion is coming from here. The more efficient the block is, the more heat that will be transferred to the water rather than dumped through other means (air, board, etc). That is the meaning of that graph. If you dump a larger percentage of the identical heat load into the water (see above), the water will be warmer. Though the radiator will work more efficiently because of the larger dT, it will NOT cool the water to below the temp of the lower heat input. Therefore, you will have warmer water. Not a big difference, but a difference nonetheless.

I don't think any of what I said qualifies as a "tilt". Theory is only as good as what it's applied to. As far as heat travelling from higher to lower regions, that still applies. The die is hotter than the water, which is then hotter than the rad. Everything fits. A more efficient block will assist the heat in taking the path of least resistance: the path to the water. This is just like reducing the restriction on a parallel circuit: it will cause more energy to flow through that particular branch. Since more of that thermal energy will be sent to the water as opposed to other distribution sources (passive cooling), more energy will go to the water. This phenomenon can not be disputed as it holds perfectly to all the theory out there. Plus, it doesn't magically make heat disappear, unlike some of the other ideas being thrown about.

I respect your expertise, guys, but I think you're wrong this time.

That's true, but you're going on about it as if the best performing blocks fare better because they have a greater secondary heat loss, and that's just not the case.

The way my simplified mind see's it is the water temp is produced by the temp of the block(CPU), so a cooler CPU is going to create cooler(or not hotter) water...

The water is at 'X' temperature because of the temperature of the block/CPU, not because it carries 'X~BTU's per cubic~CM'...

Am I wrong in thinking this?...

The water is at X temperature because of the heat load of the cpu. The temperature of the cpu is because of the required temperature difference across the whole cooling setup.

8-ball

airspirit,

the reason there is dispute is largely the way you explained it.

I agree that a more efficient block will result in warmer water as the heat dissipated through the watercooling will be slightly greater, so the temperature difference between the water and the air will have to be slightly greater.

However, the way you tried to justify yourself was flawed, and it was more that that I was trying correct than the statement that a more efficient block will result in a greater percentage of the heat load being dissipated by the watercooling.

8-ball

So, I guess it gets back to my first post on the subject:

"That is a really murky statement. If you can assume that heat is being pulled more efficiently into the water via the block (like a WW when compared to a Senfu), then naturally the water will be a little warmer, and this would cause the radiator to transfer more heat. How they stated it, though, is really stupid, and is a case of making alot of noise about nothing ... and stating it backwards perhaps to deliberately confuse the customer and hopefully gaining a sale because of the long-winded description that means that it has to be good ... right? They should have summed it up as "a more efficient water block.""

While the change in water temperature doesn't matter to any measurable degree, it is still there. That manufacturer/retailer was trying to explain why their part was the shiznit because of the warmer water statement. I was basically trying to say that going into that level of irrelevant detail doesn't serve the customer well, and in the end the whole thing could be summed up as: a more efficient block.

We've now gone full circle. *sigh*

And I've been trying to bend my head around why it's not warmer! :cry: :shrug: ...












:D

Wet and chilly chips

Read the blurb in the center. below the competition. I like the cooling myths in particular.

8-ball

LOL

"So why use 3/8 tubing its unsightly and not necessary on this system."

I like how they try to excuse their sucky crap in comparison to other manufacturers' superior products by saying "it's not like you're cooling a Chevy V8!" It's like saying that the stock AMD heatsink is outstanding because it can theoretically keep the chip running ... just not as cool as other products. But hey, who wants a cool chip anyway?

I find the 10C over ambient claim to be far more noteworthy than the drivel about copper and flow rates being un-necessary. Lets play along, and agree that flow, and good materials are for suckers. Then, we have only to establish how they get that genuince CPU die temperature of 30C in a 20C room. Assuming the CPU is roughly 70W, then that would mean that the Wet and Willy Block has a C/W of about .14 with thermal interface material. That ain't half bad. It's crap but it's impressive ain't it.

off topic -

Wait a minute, you guys are going to tell me that there is no Santa Claus, no Easter bunnie, Clinton didn't inhale, and Gore didn't invent the internet. Ch*ist is there nothing sacred to you scientist and engineers???

.... There is a free lunch...tickets still available....send $5 cash (no checks, credit cards or money orders) to
Ralph's Save the World Fund
PO Box 1663
Santa Fe, NM, USA
- tax deductable
- discounts for groups so call your friiends and family
- water cooling door prizes for the first 100 folks
- AND if we receive your money within the next 2 weeks you will be entered in the grand prize drawing (a Cray YMP just taken out of service by LANL, winner responsible for power supply, power backup system and cooling)

If ignorance were dope, 95% of the world would OD.



PS. I don't wanta hear the money is in the mail Bill!

I'll give that site this.. their right, we aren't cooling a V8! This is a CPU, we don't have room for that kind of temperature range; we need it as close to ambient as possible; the V8 will work fine at very high temperatures.

And they got a second thing right too! 30 grams IS light enough to ship installed!

wow lets all go buy their craptacular system now!

Did you come up with that? I like it, it's catchy! ;)

I don't think I did, but I've been using it so long, who knows?

[H] review here: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MzI5

Site: http://www.bluecooling.com/index_splash.htm

That thing is junk. I can't belive they wasted money on getting it patented. And did you see the seal up job on it? And they anozided the inside? Props to [H] for good pics!

You can patent your own feces nowadays.

Yeah, the pics speak for themselves

http://www.hardocp.com/images/articl...v4f_4_22_l.jpg


http://www.hardocp.com/images/articl...v4f_4_23_l.jpg

The review really contrasts with the manufacturer's claims. :(

Does this mean that we now get subambient temps?

Yikes ! That was scary, and I mean both the pics, and BTMS' reply in the article!

There's a company that knows nothing about watercooling! They even claim that there's no benefit of using copper over Alu!:rolleyes:

You guys have very small memories. I talked with the owner of bluecooling and KYLE. This was a prototype, sent to kyle to make suggestions for a final version. Kyle trashed them and the BTMS after they refused to pay for his "marketing".

edit: btw, Kyle acknowledged that he knows its a prototype. I asked if he was going to change or add the comment that this was one. He refused.

Of course it does.

The literature for the blocks says:

"CPU temperature reductions of 10% to 40% are immediate when converting to a Blue Thermal Management System."

A statement like this doesn't make any sense unless they are referencing these percentages to absolute zero.

So using the Kelvin temperature scale, (which is referenced to absolute zero) if I have a CPU temperature of 323 *K (50 *C), and I only get the 10% reduction, then I'll have a CPU temperature of 291 *K (18 *C).

Better yet, if I get a 40% reduction in CPU temperature, the CPU will be running at a chilly -79C.

Where do I order these?

Prometeia?? Vasetech???? ROFLMAO!

I didn't forget.

The claims are still outrageous, and they clearly showed that they know nothing about water cooling.

What you guys may not know that the BTMS was designed ONLY to run with a TEC. It was never meant to run without one. Although Kyle ran it with a in the waterblock roundup with ITS TEC PLATE ON and no TEC. Sub-ambient temps? Sure... thats what its for when used as it was designed.
I never said they didn't make some stupid claims, however I would hope that the "more learn-ed" critical would bother to be quasi-informed before heaping it on.
Since87 ... :rolleyes: im sure thats exactly what the meant ;)
Jaydee, I worked in an AC shop that anodizes parts for Navy ships. Anodization lowers corrosion effects, and does not subtract from thermal properties.

Actually, winewood, anodising DOES affect thermal properties, since Alumina has a lower thermal conductivity than aluminium. However the thickness of the alumina produced by anodising is so thin that difference is minimal.

But this is not the same as saying it doesn't subtract from thermal properties.


As for the BTMS, we have crossed paths on this before, and while you pursuaded me to be a little more open minded in my "appraisal", I'm not sure the same will happen the second time round.

Might I ask what your personal interest is in this product as you seem to be the only person who will still be defending it even when people have outlined its many weaknesses.

I also understand that this is a prototype, and an updated version may have a better quality of construction, and use copper in place of aluminium, but it is the design concept which is more at fault than the construction materials.


Why is the design a problem? There is one significant flaw in the design, and I will try and address this.


Firstly, an understanding of the operation of a TEC is necessary. (For the benefit of those who aren't sure)

TEC's work by transferring thermal energy from one side of the unit to the other. This is a very inefficient process and requires a large power input from a psu.

When studying the "rating" of a peltier, you will be given a Qmax and deltaTmax.

Qmax - the maximum thermal energy which the peltier can dissipate. This will occur at ZERO degrees temperature difference between the cold side and the hot side.

deltaTmax - this is the maximum temperature difference attainable by the peltier, and will occur with ZERO heat load on the unit.

Neither of these cases is realistic, and we will always be operating somewhere between the two.

So for a given TEC, the lower the heat load, the greater the temperature differential between the hot side and the cold side.

Here in lies the problem.

With this design, there is a large array of fins attached to the cold side of the TEC. Why is this a problem?

This means that the TEC can draw heat away from the ambient air in addition to the heat from the processor, if the cold side gets to much below ambient. The lower the temp of the cold plate below ambient, the more heat will be transferred from the air, and the lower the temperature difference across the TEC, since the heat load is increased.

The result of this is that the cold side is unlikely to get much below ambient temperature. Chances are, it will, but not by much.

However, this will cause condensation to occur on the fins, which will drip straight onto the graphics card when the computer is switched off.

Essentially, it is a VERY inefficient way of using a VERY inefficient heat pump.

8-ball

8-ball... once again you convey yourself very well. That kind of criticism is very professional. I really don't know how it performs. I do not know if its a winner or looser. Having seen this article a year ago, considering the source, and false representations, and have yet to see anything come to market as they claimed already was. I have to wonder. Perhaps this is vaporware? I just noticed the comments about sub-ambient, and anodising. Sub amb. was explainable. Criticism has its place, but frankly the anodising loss is better related to a gram of ice on a hotplate, or teflon on a skillet. It's not a big enough difference to say it BS in marketing, although notable to say it has a .02 degree difference, laughable to only a troll. If pointing out lame or uneducated jabs makes me president of the company, I wish to criticise Microsoft and Citigroup as well. :D Perhaps Jaydee can enlighten us as to the horrid nature of anodizing the inside of an alu block... LOL

Wait a moment. It has already have a TEC right?
Does that mean it will cool a TEC with a TEC?
Double sandwish TEC?