Only thing i saw about not being a public thing:
Seen nothing about the 4000-T. I don't understand what your problem is with it. It will do what it says. What BillA is trying to say is prove it wrong with data not words saying it will not work.

EDIT: Also it is called copy and pasting.

I was in contact with Swiftech last year (they setup a dealer account for me). Although the MCX4000-T was listed on their site. There was no purchase option for it. When I queried them about it, I was told that the unit was no longer available due to performance issues.

Now I am to believe that the MCX4000-T is available to industry only. Just wondering why that is? (given that Bill has suggested it's too complicated for the average joe to use).

I would like to know why this heatsink is supposedly beyond the grasp/abilities of the ordinary user (given that some of my customers are using peltiers with bolt-down heatsinks from Thermalright!).

"(pleeze folks, the MCW5360-T is an 'industrial' product not available to OCers" - Since when is an MCW5360 an MCX4000-T?

Swiftech were selling air-cooled peltier heatsinks to the ordinary consumer. They have now withdrawn all air-cooled heatsinks from sale to the consumer.

Note: A quick check on their website reveals the MCX4000-T is back on display. Does that mean it is or it isn't available to the consumer?

The spec there is talking about maintaining around about ambient T with a 70W heat load. Seems reasonable to me, it would only need to be dissipating 120-ish watts. An 80CFM fan should do this OK, subject to caseflow and power considerations.
Do you have data contradicting this? That would be very interesting. Or at least some summary of your experiences would be of more interest than the bad mouthing.
Although it IS rather entertaining. But it does not make for a particularly good sales pitch, either for your point or your product.

Cheers

Incoherent

I have to agree it is entertaining.
Ever watch the govermnet in a debate... it is funny as heII.... it is a wonder that anything get's done with all the bashing they do... they never answer each others questions, just dance alround and do name calling... can we change this thread name to "Politics with Feathers" :p

Unfortunatly I have developed this argumentative attitude from posting at one particular off-topic forum elsewhere (We argue on everything from pieces of cheese to metaphysics).

I suppose it's a good way to relieve stress sometimes (but of course it can be very stressful in itself).

The time spent arguing on this forum has already caused me to re-think many issues (and so for all of the bickering - I still see it as being valuable/useful/enlightening).

I believe that one of the reasons I get so angry is because my business really has been working very well over the past few years. We have sold a lot of peltiers and during that time have had to replace only one unit (returned as DOA).

We've always received positive comments from customers (until the past 4 weeks or so). One customer using a 130W with heatsink/fan was expecting temperatures below ambient (although there have been many things which needed changing/re-wording we have always made it clear that air-cooled pelts simply don't work as well as watercooled units). The customer in question got temps of 25C (I guess that was lower limit although he didn't make that clear). That particular customer was in the process of switching to water anyway.

It is only over the past month that we have thought seriously about phasing out the 130W and adding more powerful units.

I can certainly appreciate that many things needed to change with the website. If we were to continue selling the 130W for CPU cooling then we would run into serious problems. But it has worked very well for us over the past few years and not a single complaint!

I think that counts for something. But I can certainly appreciate where you guys are coming from when you state the need for proof and concrete data.

well, i'm not even going to bother getting involved in this debate, the only comment I have is regarding the web site. fix all the pages so they can be read through without scrolling from side to side (a sign of a well-designed page, not to mention less of an annoyance to potential customers ;) ), I have a 17" monitor and still have to move back & forth. Ideally, someone with a 15" monitor should be able to read your site without haveing to do that. also, as you have recognized, there needs to be a balance regarding the content of the site. part of the reason why I hang out here at procooling, is that its such a great source of information, I know that the guys here will present all aspects of a product or idea, both good and bad, and if you want your site to be a more informative site for people looking to be involved with TEC usage, then give them as accurate a picture as possible, not just an extreme to counter those that shun TECs as evil. that's all, carry on.

Yet Amother Pissing Match
 

Another waste of time and energy.

Hi Zog:

I will look into the issue of sideways scrolling website (not running in 800x600 are you?) although the text boundaries should never expand past 95% of the screen width!??

The site is certainly undergoing a major rewrite and the focus will now be on presenting both the pros and cons of extreme-cooling (much of the text has already been rewritten but I don't think it's been uploaded yet). The rewrite will also be less of a statement or reaction against anti-tec people and more about showing that TE cooling can work well if the right procedures are followed.

May also add some more humour there as well (although the 'brainwashing' text was more of a joke aimed at Procooling members).

Thanks for the input.

EDIT: I like that clear case cube of yours. Been thinking of changing to a clear case myself. The box I have at the moment is beautiful (brushed alu with UV acrylic panels and UV leds) but it's very small.

EDIT: Always remember to use that EDIT Button.

On the upside... Feathers now uses the EDIT button :)

Yes he sure do.

:-)

Yall have to much free time...

I agree with Bob, above. ;)


Feathers, please, please take a minute, and check out this page:
http://www.overclockers.com/topiclist/index31.asp#WATER COOLING

It contains all the water cooling related articles that OverClockers has published. Now run a search for Bill's articles: read them! In particular, the radiator roundup, and the individual components he tested, especially the latest ones, as well as the details of the testbench he used (worth in excess of $20'000 btw).

That should give you a preliminary estimate of what Bill can do. I don't care if he's grumpy: "niceness" is a luxury. He's grumpy, and we all live with it!

What Bill is now asking, is that you show some testing data, to backup any claim of "temperature" or "efficiency", claimed or implied, related to your product and/or anything you've posted, here or elsewhere (he's tracking you, trust me! ;) ).

Like I said, testing isn't anywhere near being easy. That's why I created the WBTA, so that those interested in testing can get together and share resources, ideas, and eventually cross-test some water blocks. Ok, enough pitching of the radio station... ;)

I got a 14" screen on this laptop and a 19" on my desktop both at 1024x768 and I just went through the entire site on both and didn't have any side scrolling? Looked good to me.

@ feathers; thanks, I had a blast making that case & it's always nice to have one's work noticed, unfortunately I had to part with it (still in the family though, so maybe one day i'll get it back ;) )
and yeah, i'm still using 800x600, so sue me. to be honest the only page i really had trouble with was the TEC information page, i think. still, it was one of the ones with the most text on it, so it was the most noticeable. the others were merely the header extending off of the side of the page. and not really a big deal, but I figured i'd mention it since it is a commercial site, and part of good business is making the site as user-friendly as possible, so people will come back. and 800x600 is still the lowest common denominator, so to speak. also, I couldn't tell if the links at the beginning were looping continuously, or stopped after a bit, nice graphics, but the looping was annoying. also, some text to label the pics might be nice, a.) for those who aren't quite sure what the pictures link to, and b.) for those with crappy dial-up connection. again, these are only suggestions though, feel free to ignore them as you wish, or not, your call. :D

Thanks for the pointers, Zog.

It should be fairly easy to make the pages compatible with 8x6.

The very first intro page with the Flash isn't complete! (you'd think we would have completed that first, right?). I might also shrink down the graphics/flash on that intro page because I think it's oversized. The intro page needs to be finished though and the animation will also be finished.

All the suggestions you made are valid and they will effect the outcome of the final design.

:-)

Just a quick note:

I think with peltiers and a cascade block, the peltiers cooling the water would proove to be a good sistem in terms of overclockability.

But search here for 'stirling cycle engines'. They are the future.

Thanks for the info jaydee.. This makes me wonder if it's Zog's text size which causes the side-scroll bar to appear? Are you using a large character size in IE, Zog? I will have to check the site out with larger text.

BigBen: Thanks for the link to the article.. I will check it out before long. As well as the text rewrite for the web-site: More emphasis will be placed on performance data in future.

EDIT: I searched for stirling cycle engines.. All I found were large outdoor coal/wood power generators. I read the piece on stirling engines for CPU cooling though. Interesting.

Re: Cascade..

I wonder if it would benefit peltier plates as well? From what I've read - they focus the jets over the area of the CPU core whereas the average cpu pelt is 50mm square. Perhaps the jets would still serve to cool the larger surface area of the peltier quite well?

What does the developer have to say about this?

Swiftech claims seem reasonable.
Using Kryotherm ,Waterloo,
Since87,and
Delta/img

Get theoretical/empirical results::
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ3.jpg
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ4.jpg
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SLAJ5.jpg

EDIT:
Notes on last graph

Used Since87 to cslculate 220w Peltier performance in perfectly "Insulated condition"(Ri= infinity). Then iteratively corrected to allow for Insulation Losses/Gains using Kryotherm

Rc
Using my understanding that the Spreading Resistance is dependant on the Contact Conductance(h) of the Peltier-Coldside/Coldplate. I equate "h" to Contact Conductance of the Hotside/HS( = Area x 1/Rh).
Giving h=1786 W/m*m*K (0.0025x 1/0.224) and h=2516 W/m*m*K
Waterloo gives a "Total Conductive Resistance"(subtracting Contact Resistance from Total Resistance) of 0.103c/w for both cases.
TIM resistance of 0.1c/w (for 10x10mm die) is added to give an Rc=0.203c/w
Ri
Insulation (Ri) =1
This is a real beast. It is used as a tool to estimate the secondary cooling/heating of the die.Nigh impossible in the thermal environment of a motherboard to use anything other than empirical values.However with very liitle or no data available this difficult.My present preferred value for CPU in motherboard is Ri=1( maybe 0.5c/w is better in view of this . Dunno )