An assortment from Pug (cheeky, moi?) would be a very good start.
His Wizard Designs outfit represents some of the more popular picks amongst the Teutonic community.

I'd be willing to play with a Alpha 1.0 if I can get one cheap...always wanted a SHD block. how much shipping to US is expected?

/edit: seems to be £3.99. these are 1/4 i'm guessing....let me sleep on it :)

Sorry!
 

I was just using cars as an analogy, and it kind of got out of control...DOH! :rolleyes:

Maybe Asetek would pony up a kit too. This could work out very well: I'll test out the wbs as well on my testbed and then we can just have Procooling giveaways :)

what I'd want to do with it is cool my socket 7 server...but thinking about it I dont think itd even fit on the socket (no clearance). so maybe I can convince my friend to do it, since I'm hooking him up with watercooling. If I can get it all for $100 I'll definitly use his system as a test :D

Question: The idea of a price limit (£200) has been raised - do we take into account the incredibly high premium Europeans pay for the same equipment?
For example, the MCW50 block is $38.95 at Swiftech's online store for US customers, with no tax for non-CA residents, but the same block is £28.93 before VAT (or £33.99 after VAT) in the UK - at today's rates, thats $52.45 before VAT and $61.63 after!

Do we therefore reduce the amt. that a US kit can cost to reflect this 35-58% premium? If so, by how much?

A price limit is a good idea but as for accounting for the preminum, we shouldnt do that. Its pretty much "you have x value to work with , what can you get with each methodolgy". at least thats what I think

I do notice that stuff is REALLY EXPENSIVE. I'm not going to be able to do this for under 150 US

well I didn't include price as one of my 4 prime criteria because it's so subjective. An Innovatek kit is $300US at www.highspeedpc.com how does that compare w/ price in Europe?

It depends on the particular kit.
Have a look here for a selection:

Innovatek kits

The Innovatek XXS kit is €239 at Innovatek's online shop, which at today's rate is $289.50 - so pretty much the same price in Europe as in the US.

The US ripping off Europe goes for pretty much all computer hardware - for example, a Dell 2001FP 20.1" LCD is £844 after VAT in the UK, or $1515 - when I bought my 2001FPs in the States they were $750 each - half the price.

"The US ripping off Europe goes for pretty much all computer hardware . . . . "
wtf
the US is responsible for EU taxation ?

Good points pHaestus. Acknowledge 'em all. :)
I think we score fairly highly in most categories there if that's the design brief.
I can drop to a single 120mm rad now that cases with 120mm mounts as standard are becoming more commonplace but if people wanted to see a more direct comparison - we could easily make a kit using twin 80mms (unless Swiftech's forthcoming kit just happens to include a 120).

Thanks for the moderation. It's appreciated. :)

BillA - off the top of my head, I don't know. I can get the info within 24 hours if it were needed but I don't think it is.
Why not? I'm not the design team, that's why. You can think of me as a salesman with a passion if it makes it easier... ;)

All the parts I'm offering are available as a kit or separately. Hell, we'll even be selling parts of the block so that existing users of our products can upgrade their old blocks (if they bought the right ones) :p
We can wait that couple of weeks... I have to get the kit from Germany & forward it to the US. No problem.
What's your biggest rad(s) likely to be? I'm quite flexible you know. :)

The kit I propose is all about max convenience & performance.

I concur with your definition of a 'kit'. :)

Pretty much my point but as mentioned, I'm quite flexible.
Sure. As many as we are allowed, eh? ;)

Most definitely.

Oh I don't know... trust me, I think it'll be worthwhile... ;)
I don't think we'd need to send more than the kit I have in mind. Maybe if initial tests prove inconclusive...

(thanks for the props nightic :))

This is very true. Perhaps it's best to forget I mentioned it (but in the UK, for what you'd be getting in the kit, it's a very good price ;) ).

No, obviously not - not trying to insinuate that its the US or "greedy US manufacturers" at fault (although some manufacturers do charge more in countries that can afford more, like Microsoft and Dell) but merely trying to point out the disparity between the costs for identical parts - my wording was rash, however.

That wouldn't be the case in this instance.

No manner of taxes would account for that level of price inflation on an electrical item.

Dell simply charges that amount over here because we're all idiots and don't mind paying :shrug:

Further reading:

Inq

well, uninformed buyers are needed too,
else all the business would be at one spot
j/k

oh well if the INQUIRER says it it must be true

Well they didn't really say it per se, they reported a fact (the price differential).
Whether one wants to agree with any conclusions they form is an entirely seperate matter ;)

thats true. if theres a difference theres a difference.

it works this way for everything. for instance my friends are all JDM this and JDM that and one guy had to be physically restrained from paying $100 for a JDM cupholder. Something thats something like $10 US over there. its crazy.

The exact reasoning behind my opening gambit in this thread. :)

(I'm going to ignore the tax politics talk here but guys, pH asked nicely... :shrug: )

Again - not trying to argue why it costs more or whether it is fair, just stating that it IS a fact that when it comes to computer hardware the price in Europe is often 2/3rds more than the price in the US, and that its not really fair to compare a $350+ USD kit to a £200 UK kit, even if that is the current conversion rate.

You wouldn't say that an AMD A64 3200+ for $282 (US price) is a much better value than a P4 3.2C for £205/$370 (UK price) you'd compare it to the US price for the 3.2 C - $279

Out of curiosity...
 

Dell charges an arm and a leg for a LCD monitor, but they are OEM'ed by Samsung. Whats Samsung want for the same monitor (in a different shell) in the UK?

Conversely, what does Phillips want for one? They're a European company rebranding another Korean LCD panel, an LG I believe. If there is one thing Dell does well, it is waging price wars against the competition in a given market. I bet everyone, including European companies, rip Europeans off, assuming it isn't taxation. I mean, its not like Dell would be moving lots of monitors in Europe if they cost twice what say, Phillips was selling them for.

Perhaps we should find a single on-line store, a big one that carries the respective competing brands chosen for battle, and go with a budget figure for items from that store. That way one region's higher taxes-getting ripped on prices issues would be a universal constant, rather than different. Whether we bought from that store or not, we would price our "test budget" accordingly.

Thought we'd dismissed the budget category. This is just to see how things have evolved differently and to prove the point that ^^^ statements like this have little basis in fact.

Not sure i wanna get tangled up in this one (eeeek) but i'll throw a curved ball in for the sake of price wars this might assist a little.

I put together a few kits the latest being TDX Hi-Flow at £175.99

/..........or a TDX Hi-Flow Plus at £195.99

Hey Pug................BTW i'm sure something similar was mentioned in Bit a while ago, without this response i hasten to add ;)

Should be interesting though!

Hehe. Hi Paul.
Well, if we're going to do it, I thought we might as well do it properly.. ;)

Sorry nothing came of it back then but I guess you know some of the problems I went through for a while...

Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind.

That's a pretty good idea, for getting the general parts (unless we decide to just do kits) but then obviously the water blocks would have to be seperate as I doubt any store has both types that we need to test.

So is this testing kits, water blocks or theories? Because originally it seemed the question was between small tubing and large tubing (1/4" or 3/8" and 1/2" respectively). If so, the fairest way would be to test the same water block designed at different sizes, and do the same for the rad and the pump. Whether actual design comes in to affect the cooling for different sized connections, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't have thought so.

Do ya get what I'm saying?

hey its a good call Pug...................you got hold of a tiger by the tail this time and can't let go :D

no worries about last time as it was more of a knee jerk post anyway!

at least this way it hopefully gets done with some kind of rules and regs (ish)


/........adds this one to Favorites

Well, I'm offering a kit. Obviously, the block could be tested independantly at the same time to get a better idea of how it holds up out of its element.
My hose choice would be 8/10mm (suits both pump & block) , my pump is molex powered out of the box.
I'm talking kit that people can go straight out and purchase and I'm keen to dispel the myth that Eu/German products are not performance oriented.

'nuff said?


[Edit] Thx Paul :)

I'm not going to turn this into a career meethoss. Not testing a bewildering variety pf pumps, hose size, rad, etc. These should be complete kits from mfgr in my opinion and NOT something that is assembled by a retailer.

I would suggest tests of all wbs as per normal Procooling methods, but not as part of this "competition". Let's face it, if I have the wb here I'll run it. That should address any questions about whether a system could benefit substantially from larger tubing or a difft pump.

Don't sweat it pHaestus - I assure you this will be a mfr backed kit. I'd just like to keep a level playing field, so I can choose which relevant kit.

I don't want to hamstring any other competitor - Last time we out-performed US offerings with Eu ones, it was discredited with comments such as "but you're using a twin fan rad".

If I know our opponent's criteria in advance, I can be selective to avoid this. :)

... and who's to say that some mfrs don't look to some retailers for their opinions when configuring kits for release anyway? ;)

"... and who's to say that some mfrs don't look to some retailers for their opinions when configuring kits for release anyway?"

if they do not they're asleep (or an egomaniac)