You guys should look at this pump:
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=DP1117

20W, 385GPH, 9FT Max head. I use this pump now and it works GREAT.

Some more specs on these pumps. http://www.dolphinpumps.com/pond___t...ies_models.htm

Stiffler, noise level, vibration ?

Just wondering where ya found these numbers Nim. I was just talking to NPI which distributes the Panworlds (they have em in stock) and was given an Input value of 55 watts and an Output of 20 watts which would keep the AC variant within the preferred wattage ratings for pumps. If its indeed 65/45 then it falls well outside.

***EDIT***

Found it!
I think those Input/Output values you were using were for their higher flow pumps- the 50PX-N and 50PX-X-N which both have 65/45 values. The 50PX-Z does indeed have a 55/20.

The 50PX-Z has the following values -
@2500rpm 4.8m head/9.5lpm
@3000rpm 6.7m head/11lpm

It *sounds* like a great pump. Right on par with the Iwaki 20Z series. The downside is that its one-at-a-time costs are higher than the Iwaki 20Z with the American motors by about $12. The specs are almost mirror images so there is very little to differentiate between the two pumps. It does cost less than the Japanese motored Iwaki 20Z however which does sound nice. Lastly they are supposedly slightly more quiet than the Iwakis. I dont personally know so thats purely what I have read/been told by people with a slightly biased viewpoint (Panworld distributors/salespersons).

Lastly there is a definite upside in that these pumps are in stock and readily availabe from www.npipump.com

Check this:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10932
These are better pumps than the 50PXZ.

As for Now the Panworld 50PXZD it crosses the graph at 7.1-7.5 LPM
with Input=40 watts Output=29 watts
would be less good than a MD 20RZ.

Yeah, those are definitely the most interesting.

The only down side is the price tag- $180 list.

Cathar,

Would you kindly add some data to reflect how the Hydor L20, L30, L40 will work up in your lil schematic for 2 blocks and dual heater cores with a 2X120 config???


-Brandon

In terms of Pressure/Flow:
Hydor L20 ~ Eheim 1048
Hydor L30 ~ Eheim 1250
Don't think there will be significant difference in heat output either
(IIRC Cathar doesn't own any Hydor pumps...)

Nim-

Just for info, the 10PI pumps are available for right at $140 from a California distributor by the name of James Wylbee Company. Its the 24VDC version which is a bit smaller than the AC version.

Bob Wylbee gave me some MTBF numbers that didnt quite make sense so I am waiting for a callback with the 'official' Panworld numbers on this.

Noise level is almost nill. I have the pump in an external enclosure, and without my 2 120s turned on, I can barely hear the pump. It does have a little bit of vibration. I can feel the box vibrating slightly, but not enough that it vibrates anything else. The 2 120s that I use totally dwarf the pump in noise and vibration...

Panworld has no MTBF #s, part of why Swiftech sells Laing pumps now

From a quick look through it doesn't look like many of the people over there have got the concept that pump heat is bad for their systems - there were several people who were going straight for the biggest pump they could find :(
Thanks for trying to spread a little truth and light about though!

How does Laing know the MTBF of their pumps, they're just estimates right? Wouldn't they need to wait 6-7 years after development to specify the true MTBF?

Anyone quoting MTBF is either using statistical modelling (get X number of pumps for y amount of time, crunch numbers) or accelerated testing. Don't know what you would do for accelerated testing for a pump, but for something like a cpu, you do heat cycling and radiation acceleration along with voltage.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

the second story of the office building at the plant in Hungary is nothing but hundreds of pumps on test for years
generally extrapolation of one log cycle is the norm is regression testing (per my experience)

Just for info on the 10PI/15PI. According to Panworld they use a loose figure of 20,000+ for thier MTBF number.

Just for info on the 10PI/15PI. According to Panworld they use a loose figure of 20,000+ for thier MTBF number.

this is bullshit
a MTBF is the product of a statistical calc
loose figure my ass

I have FAR more experience with Panworld, and their pumps, than anyone here
and my experience with Laing is slowly building
there is no (reliability) comparison, they are worlds apart

Is Panworld that bad or is Laing that good? With the data in this thread showing the 50Z as the ideal pump I would suspect that there are going to be alot more people looking to purchase it. Would you say that's a bad idea?

That was sort of the odd thing when I heard Panworlds numbers. According to those who have used them they seem to be exceptionally dependable pumps. As stated many times by people in this thread the MTBF numbers are pretty much conjectures and extrapolations. As such one company may claim X MTBF while another decides to play it safe and claim X-20% MTBF because when all is said and done....its not a proven number.

By reputation I believe they are both good durable brands depending of course on which pump you select. Panworld did indeed run into some problems with their original 600 series due to the pump not being designed for the type loads and stress that watercooling setups put on it. They have since the original run changed the bearings setup in their 600 series and its supposed to be rock solid now.

I think the 'larger' Panworld pumps are supposed to be exactly or near exactly as dependable as Iwaki pumps. In short they have quality written all over them.

The Laing lines seem to have had quite a bit of success as well. Once again a quality pump company.

Bottom line being I think when it comes to durability they are very close to being a wash. It really boils down to which you would prefer according to their numbers. Both the distributors and manufacturer reps I have talked to for Laing and Panworld have stated they are extremely interested in the watercooling market and as such plan on backing their products to the hilt.

MTBF is not conjecture and extrapolation. There is a lot of hard science and testing involved in coming up with a true MTBF number. Accelerated testing, large lot testing, stress testing, spot testing, etc. It is generally not cheap (tying up upwards of hundreds or thousands of parts and related equipment for long periods of time). MTBF numbers also tend to be "downgraded" by a manufacturer to account to variations they couldn't tests for.

If someone is quoting an MTBF number they better damn well be able to demonstrate how they arrived at the number in a reasonable manner in a court of law OR they have really really bad legal advice.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

yup, a technical description needs to be based on facts

at our request, Laing is putting together a consumer oriented summation of test programs documenting the MTBF value
PanWorld does not have these numbers because the testing was (apparently) never done

Swiftech has experience with thousands of these pumps and I can state unequivocally that there is no comparison between the 2 products' reliability
but hey, some use Danner pumps also

When you were selling the MCP600s, were they purchased direct from panworld or were they sourced from a distributor that rebranded them?

direct, I am speaking from experience
they are a 'good' pump, but lack the reliability of the Laing where such is a consideration
but given my experience I would really double ck the app and pump suitability
- a closed loop WCing system is not an aquarium or pumping from a sump

As I understand it, the AquaXtreme 50Z-DC12 is a 'version 2' of the MCP600 that was created after there were some problems with MCP600 V1 (please correct if I am mistaken).

That leads to the question - How long has the version 2 of the AquaXtreme 50Z been available, and is there any anecdotal experiences from users of the newer version pump failing for whatever reason?

jesus christ, I handle all warranty claims for pumps
I do suspect that Swiftech has sold many more thousands of these Rev.2 pumps than Cooltechnia (probably ever will)

re-read my posts

Sorry to aggravate you, Bill. I did not know that Swiftech had sold the version 2, pardon my ignorance and thanks for the reply.

Very Sincerely, Jesus christ

my apology
I too often presume that 'all' are familiar with a pump so often discussed
I sourced it, and with the agreement of PanWorld put the pump into an application for which it was not suited
lots of failures ensued, the pump head got redesigned; Ver.2 eliminated the pump head problems
remaining are some undefined (to me) electronic problems which seem to result in a few failures
as I said, a 'good' pump, just not on a par with Laing from a reliability aspect

Your reply is much appreciated.

I'll bet those few lines represent a lot of hair pulling and a few choice words on your part. Must have been hell for a few months. I now understand why the MTBF is so critical for your company. Good luck with the new Laing product, I'm sure it will do well.

and many thousands of $s 'fixing' a problem not apparent initially,
lessons in prudence re pump selection

DDogg the answer to your Q is no. We don't have any experiences with the newer version of the pump (AQX-50Z) failing for whatever reason. If customers do have bad experiences, with out a doubt they don't hesitate to share it with others over the forums.