Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

You want to separate yourself from "we" now you bunch us as "you guys". If you want to be separate from "us" then please go somewhere else as you are not adding anything to "us guys" that we can use to better what we are trying to do. You consistently let us carry on with what we think is correct (for years) and then come out and shoot us down like we should have known better yet over those years you added nothing to change it.

Yes Bill I am getting rather tired of it. If you know better then quit starting threads like this and just go strait to the answer. I (we) don't have the time to become scientists and I don't care to be or have time for it.

I am no longer searching for a way to test. Will wait for it from someone who knows better. We (as in not you) obviously do not and will not on our own.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

jd
Look at the date this thread was started, much has transpired since then.
I rule nothing, share some experience and data, and offer suggestions;
of late my suggestions find little favor for a variety of reasons.

As I find myself repeatedly 'doing battle' with the same group (those with little to no die sim testing experience), do excuse me for failing to identify with them.

Nothing is static in this business, testing is little different; always a search for the best tool for the evolving job. The manner in which procooling 'evaluated' sink testing methodologies was crude and ugly; pH wrote a good summary which should have been the starting point for a discussion, rather than the anticlimactic conclusion to a pissing contest.

this is sad from you jd
"Yes Bill I am getting rather tired of it. If you know better then quit starting threads like this and just go strait to the answer. I (we) don't have the time to become scientists and I don't care to be or have time for it."

Yes, often the answer is known (to me, in my mind) but we both know often rejected here too; I do presume you recall the contents of this thread. Do you recognize jd that very many (most ?) of your very vocal opinions you have morphed into as you started listening and learning a bit ?

If you, and others, do not have the time and/or inclination to 'get technical', it is you jd who need to seek less demanding reading and discussion.
May I suggest the censored forum for a good mix of opinion and fantasy.

Since I began some years back I have been raising the bar for the technical analysis of WCing gear, I intend to continue doing so.
Joe invited me to run a blog here, it is technically driven and will continue to be so; this thread is in that area, no ?

Perhaps you are tired of seeing me post in the 'public' threads ?
that is doable:
-> Do others prefer for me to limit my posting to threads in this section ?

My next project is building a wind tunnel. It will be a procooling version, you will not like it for its theoretical basis.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

No. I have made it my new year's resolution to fire up my testbench and I'm sure that I, along with many others, would benefit greatly from your input.

"Something" is going to be measured by me, this year.:cool:

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Bill your input is always welcomed by me. You just leave people hanging to much. This is my main bitch. You jump in a thread and say some stuff but don't elaborate enough for anyone to understand what to do.

I am working 50-60hrs a week and have a 2 hour drive every work day. That leaves me about 3 hrs a day to do whatever (go to store, eat, shower, get gas, whatever). Weekends are booked with the kid and a few other projects. I don't have the time to become an engineer and design a test bed and testing method for water blocks. That is the reality of it. I have been hopeing people with extensively more experience would come up with the design and methods so people like me (which is 95% of people that test blocks) can have something to build on. I thought the die sim was it but now see the last 2 years of my building those has been wasted....

I think people are more bent on you about the TTV thing. I really don't care about it simply because we will never have the cash to build such a device. Especially one to cover all CPU designs.

Also what exactly has changed since this thread started? Seems to me we (including you) are no closer to finding a useful testing method than we were?

And I have lost focus on this Bill. Big time. Don't take anything personal as I do respect you and what you have done. Just finding myself wondering why we even bother testing water blocks anymore. Maybe my goals in testing have disappeared. Seems like it is all about commercial intrests now.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

I do answer questions, ?
not all problems have facile answers though

That technical bits are put to commercial use is fine by me, who is to pay the bills ?
The reality is that DIY testing on-the-cheap won't produce 'acceptable' results.
I attempted to define some test beds wrt cost/performance but there was no possible discussion here due to the absolute positions taken. Only with pH's article were the alt approaches reasonably described, time will tell what happens - I think we lost the opportunity to 'shape' the testing scene.

commercial interests ? sure, most do consider the price/performance of products compared
fancy testing benefits product design, not quite so essential for product comparisons

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

I have asked many questions that have gone unanswered. I never really expect an answer though but do feel disappointed when I don't get one. Even if it is a "I have no good answer".

When is the line drawn from on-the-cheap to not-on-the-cheap? I have a couple G's worth of test equipment and don't see a logical solution for testing with it. This is the problem.

You know I think I even forgot what the goal was.

1) Cheap testing solution all reviewers can use and get consistent results?
2) Lab quality results from a cheap testing solution all reviewers can use?
3) Expensive testing solution that only a company with a R&D budget can afford and use?
4) ???

1 and 2 seem very unlikely. 3 has been proven to exist but few like TTV results. Is there a 4? Don't think so.

This leaves a endless debate of what is right and wrong that will not end. So I ask what is the point other than commercial interests?

It just seems things have got so complicated for little reason. Cathar had pretty good results from his testing methods. His results were pretty consistant with most end user results. pH's Socket A results seem to also back Cathars and many other end users. The IHS seems to be the main issue and now the double die CPU's with an IHS are coming out and may be standard in the future. The only way I can see testing right now is from an on die temp probe even with it's issues. Call close enough close enough and be done with it. Or just not bother and get a life. :laugh2:

At this point though if block A, B, C, D and E are good blocks then testing them is probably useless anyway. The end users results are all going to be within the performance difference of those blocks. So why should the DIY tester spend so much time and money on a test bench?

We (as in DIY'ers) need to find the "call it good enough" point and be done with it and actually get something done.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

"We (as in DIY'ers) need to find the "call it good enough" point and be done with it and actually get something done."
unfortunate you did not see fit to support my effort
it is doable, someone else will have to spearhead it as I lost too much credibility for naught

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Not sure I didn't support it? Will have to re-read things and get some focus again.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

I still see it as split:

-comparative testing (i.e. being able to tell which one is better, with some certainty)
and
-analytical testing (i.e. being able to characterize the C/W)

If we start with one target, i.e. being able to measure a die/cpu temp accurately and repeatably within 1.0 deg C (which is rough, but it's a start), then I believe that the discussion can proceed.

I see both confused when this topic is brought up; any discussion is messed up with the above. I've even wondered if a Forum format lends itself to such a discussion, and what other format would. A forum by nature allows anyone and everyone to contribute something, anything, wether it's relevant, digressive, an opinion, or a position, but at the end, there is no leadership.

Why would leadership be needed? Because bringing up the topic is for the simple purpose of achieving a consensus. Why do we need consensus? So that we can satisfy our need to have a justified position, and proceed with whatever everyone is doing.

We have no leadership.

We have no consensus.

We have no position.

To be frank, I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated because we bring all these topics up again and again, but in the end, the only thing that we achieve is that someone contributes an additional small piece of data (i.e. IHS thickness, tim joint characterization, uncertainty issue with tim joint, ...), and it's easily lost. I have over 150 thread subscriptions to track it all.

If someone is going to lead such an effort here, then they need to be nominated.

If people are going to be contributing, then we need to know who and why; are they testing, planning to test, or just want to contribute?


Does any of this sound familiar already?


Some have opted to reject the WBTA; fine, I challenge someone else to take leadership, and do it here.

There, I said it.:hammer:

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

"If we start with one target, i.e. being able to measure a die/cpu temp accurately and repeatably within 1.0 deg C (which is rough, but it's a start), then I believe that the discussion can proceed."

3 lines of text and you fell off the rails
properly define the goal please

Ben
procooling does not need a position (there is no single CORRECT solution)
those wanting to do something will gather what info they need and proceed
you will have to make your own choices, then do battle with those wanting the temp from a different spot

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Yes, the goal needs to be defined. What is the goal and why. I can think of 3 different goals all requiring 3 different solutions.

I thought the goal was posted in the first post by Bill of this thread. A platform all reviewers can use that is reasonably affordable.

The reasonably affordable part is the huge issue though. Some think $0 is reasonable and other may think $2K+ is reasonable.

This is why I stated what I did on post 44 http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...3&postcount=44

Then Bill states what he did in post 45 that really makes no sense to me. If we don't know what people are whiling to pay then how can we establish a platform?

Tolerable cost is in the eye of the reviewer not us. That is why I suggested getting the reviewers perspective on what they would pay for and then average the results and work with that.

As far as I can tell from reading hundreds of reviews over the years the reviewer is going to spend about $100 more than the cost of the computer at most. That is why I said what I said in post 39. We are at $500 in that post + the computer - dP. I do not see people spending that kind of money on their review bench.

If we are going to cater a bench to the reviewers then it will pretty much have to be a method to get the best results with just the computer itself with no additional hardware. Let's face it, most reviewers are not pH, BillA, Robotech or Roscal caliber and have no desire to be or have the time or resources to be.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

I do not view $400 as unreasonable for a good temp
- Fluke 2190A plus TC plus cal = ~$150
- addl TCs for immersion and air plus selector switch = ~$50
groove IHS = $200 ?

to test wbs an addl $200 to 300 is needed for flow and pressure drop
- Foxboro 823DP plus cal = ~$100
- mag flow meter = $100 - 200

no bs on the mag meters, many available on eBay

if this is too much money, they can skip the testing part ?

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Who will pay $400-$500-$600 though. You I and a hand full others have no problem with that amount but we already paid that amount. If they could afford it they already would have IMO.

I agree they should skip testing but they are not going to.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

The plan as presented by Bill is good; I approve.

The pricing might be off, but to each his own, for shopping around, and drawing on traded favors. It's $200 at a minimum, and there's no way around it. Any less would not have any kind of accuracy.

What you have then, is a platform for kit testing. A comparative kit testbench.

What's missing from the setup is an estimation of the accuracy and repeatability.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

you are referring to W ?
lol

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Am referring to:

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

inst + TC,
mounting,
the normal stuff

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Not sure why I didn't think of this sooner but a cheap and easy way to get the IHS milled would be to take it to an engraving shop. We would have charged about $20 at the shop I used to run with CPU still attached and probably $5-$10 with the IHS only. Local areas will very though.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

indeed you were not thinking
did you look at the dwg ?
to spec ?

more half-assed 'work'
listen jd, do it your way and you will have the scrambled eggs you deserve
stop trying to define things that you do not understand (testing)
got that ?

select dark blue as your type color when posting

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Have you lost your mind Bill? Do you have any idea at all what engraving shops do? Obviously not. If we could put 1/32" lettering on a $10,000 gold ring 1/64" deep we could easily handle a small groove in a piece of copper. And I have hundreds of times. In fact engravers are much better setup for fine detailed work than machine shops. I can't even begin to understand what you are thinking with those comments.

I am starting to wonder why you even bother here? You seem to know more than all of us on every subject so why waste your time here? Who are YOU serving? You continuously try to separate yourself from we and us so why do you keep posting at all?

Why not just answer the ****ing questions if you already know the answers? Why let us all wonder in ignorance for years and then come out and say we are ignorant?


If you honestly think IHS temp = die temp and all blocks cool the die the same through the IHS then ok. Prove it. IHS is nothing more than making the base of the block thicker and you of all should know how base thickness changes block performance.

Yes, I will do you favor and not bother wasting anymore of my time following your lead on testing as I have wasted in the past. If I listened to everyone else 4 years ago and stuck with CPU based testing and didn't follow your lead on Die sims I would be much further along on a better CPU based test bench.

Now I say **** it. There is no set of test results that you or anyone else can create that will tell me how well such and such set of parts will work in my or anyone else's computer. That is the only test results anyone really wants to know and that is the results they will know only when they install those parts. All your hi tech industry standard bull shit tests will not and never have.

Also your die sims have been half ass from the start and you were charging people for testing on them so don't go off on people half assing. Especially DIY'ers.

I will do you a favor and quit wasting my time on the testing subject.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

I was not aware that jewelers used dwgs , my error
I have a hottie and tomorrow I will hit the jewelers
I'll let you know what $20 will buy

re testing, good idea

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

ouch?

(Jaydee spanking BillA) :)

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Think Stamp and Engraving shop. Even Engraving and Sign shop. Not jeweler really all though we did plenty of that. The machinery I used was a rotary engraver. Basically a high speed precision CNC mill. I assumed you followed some of the water blocks I made on the equipment there. Have no idea what prices will be elsewhere but the 3 shops here in town would be around $20. Hard to find a good engraving shop anymore though whiling to do odd ball stuff. They may just laugh at you.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

do they work to dwgs ?
-> have YOU looked at that Intel dwg (if not, do so before responding)

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

I can't speak for all engraving shops but we worked from drawing and in fact imported .dxf's from customers.

I assume the drawing you are speaking of is the same or similar to the one in the frosty article (http://www.frostytech.com/articlevie...ticleID=1915)? If so then a strait cut at those specs should be no problem. If they choose to do it is another issue though. Hell we even traced PCB boards with it. We would do stuff like this aswell: http://www.modernengraving.co.uk/dies.htm Lot more intricate than a strait slot cut in a piece of copper.

Anyway just a suggestion.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

do you know a shop that will accept this work ?
do you have contacts through which you could find a shop ?
(very easy to mail a CPU)

not a simple slot btw, see the step at its end ?

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Yeah the step should be no problem. Will take 2 passes instead of one.

Starts description on page 76: http://developer.intel.ru/download/d...s/30255301.pdf

Pics attached.

I lost all my contacts back in 2002 when they sold the business and I went back to their construction company. You would probably have better luck locally if you are in a large city.

Here is a few links:
http://www.precisionengraving.com/index.html
http://www.gsmgraphicarts.com/engraving.html

Google for precision engraving and such.

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Wow, nice info Jaydee! I'm definitely going to use this!

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

jeez Ben, thats the Intel doc we've been discussing all along

jd, thanks for copying the dwgs, was stuck with their encryption

Re: product testing today – who is being served ?
 

Another pic of the drawing with more details.