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-   -   UV Light to Kill W/C Bacteria (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=6634)

CoolROD 08-15-2003 01:11 PM

I saw another page today that claimed that their mercury vapor had 95% 254 nm light-energy let-through ...of the UV light.

Quote:

Approximately 95% of the ultraviolet energy emitted from Ster-L-Ray germicidal lamps is at the mercury resonance line of 254 nanometers
http://home.triad.rr.com/rodrunner/R...cs/UVchart.gif


Other interesting quotes for the UV home-builder:


Quote:

The high purity fused quartz used in Ster-L-Ray ozone producing lamps is transparent to both germicidal (254 nm) and ozone producing (185 nm) wavelengths.
Quote:

Cold Cathode Germicidal Lamps -...are instant starting and utilize a large cylindrical cathode instead of a tungsten filament. Due to this construction the lamp is not adversely affected by frequent starting and the life is considerably in excess of other lamp types.

Gooserider 08-16-2003 04:01 AM

Quote:

CoolROD: I think your res. idea is great. The cap, quartz liner, and active parts from this UV-5 could easily be adapted to your idea. The bulb measures:
Hmmm... I think a couple of bits must have fallen out of your post :dome: no numbers came through on my end...

Quote:

I am pretty sure that PVC gets brittle in natural sunlight b/c of the UV it contains -we'll have to check into that.
Could be, although I've seen a number of installations that use PVC in outdoor applications, and don't seem to make any great effort to cover it. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall seeing something to the effect that NATURAL (clear) PVC has problems with UV embrittlement, so they put white coloring agents in the plumbing stuff to keep the UV from penetrating. Perhaps looking at a pipe mfgr website would give more info.

Quote:

CoolROD I saw another page today that claimed that their mercury vapor had 95% 254 nm light- energy let-through ...of the UV light.
Is this the same bulb as what you have in your unit? If so I'm confused because earlier you said the Philips bulb was 'hot cathode' but this post implies that it's cold cathode (and better for it) If it's two different bulbs perhaps we need to get specs on both and compare.
Hmm... I just did a bit of poking around on each site, neither is a fountain of information ;( but it looks like the Ster-L-Ray people have both hot and cold cathode bulbs. (with a cold cathode bulb, perhaps one of the modder lighting kits could be used to give it power? (I don't know much about those kits. Since I don't plan to have windows in my case, I've pretty much ignored them....)The shortest length either comes in is nominal 12" w/ bulb holders, 9 3/16" base to base. No mention of diameters. Ster-L-Ray also has the tubes, w/ several different diameters, but no mention of lengths. They offer several 'inline' type units, though it looked like all were pretty big. They also have an item called a 'Tankmaster' that looks like it might work - it has a bulkhead fitting w/ the tube sticking out of it and a ballast. 10" long, no mention of diameter, size of fitting, etc. It appears to use the hot cathode lamp.

The down side of the Ster-L-Ray folks is all their stuff appears to be stainless steel, their sales stuff claims that this is a virtue because the plastic products deteriorate over time. I see it as a potential problem, what is the reactivity of SS in a copper / brass WC system? I know SS is supposed to be fairly inert, but...

I don't have time for it tonight, but they have a 'ask the expert' area, so I may sign in and ask some more specific questions....

Gooserider

Quarter 08-16-2003 04:17 AM

Quote:

I am pretty sure that PVC gets brittle in natural sunlight b/c of the UV it contains -we'll have to check into that.
The common / standard SCH 40 white PVC pipe does get brittle from UV.

They do make a UV resistant SCH 40 pipe though, it usually has a purple tint to it and will be labeled as such.

CoolROD 08-16-2003 03:23 PM

I was thinking that I have seen white PVC with red (or mabye purple) lettering and stripes that designated it as sunlight resistant, outdoor use, etc. It may be that the PVC for sale at building supply stores is this type and it may well be true about the white pigment...Enough speculation -time for some facts! ;)

Quote:

Me: The bulb measures:
Yeah -I guess I abandoned or erased the dims. The bulb is U-shaped and is advertised as 4" long. I will bring it home tonight and post the dims. you need tonight or tomorrow. Here are a couple of crude pics of it:
http://home.triad.rr.com/rodrunner/R...r Pics/UV1.jpg
http://home.triad.rr.com/rodrunner/R...r Pics/UV2.jpg
I was in a hurry when I took these and tried not to look at the light. I also didn't know what it might do to my camera...

That "95% UV let-through" quote was indicating the efficiency of the mercury vapor at concentrating the UV light into useable energy at 254nm. Their graph shows a scale from 100-600nm light energy with a strong peak at 254nm. I intended to seed this thread to find out if there is more energy emitted outside of this window (from 100-600nm) to verify the .18% efficiency I saw at the Philips link. There must be a lot of energy lost somewhere and I wanted to know where...infrared, visible light, etc.:shrug: I tend to ask too many questions...but, Visible light is .4-.7 um...

Gooserider 08-17-2003 01:16 AM

Well, after a bit more poking around, I just wrote off to the folks at the Atlantic UV website (BTW they have a sizeable number of trademarks per their privacy policy page) asking for their suggestions, Included the notion of sealing one of their cold cathode lamps in a tube and dropping it in my res.

Interesting pix of your unit. Is the bulb actually in contact with the water, or is there a surrounding tube that you left out of the pix? Assuming you have normal sized hands ;) it looks to me like the tubes are around an inch and a half, and the base is about 2" Might make it a challenge to fit into a 1.5" pipe... However I'm not totally married to that size, so I could possibly have a length of bigger pipe down the bottom, though it will be a real nightmare of adapters... (I even have a big hunk of 4" left over from another project, though I'd hate to stuff something that big in my case.)

Gooserider

h4rm0nix 08-17-2003 07:16 AM

Gooserider,

The bulb lies inside a quartz test tube. That way it never comes in contact with the water. In addition it does not release much heat into the water.

The overall dimensions as reported are accurate, around 3" to 3.5" inches in diameter, approx 7" long, extra inch in diameter at each hose barb.

The barbs can be easily replaced however, they are simple 1/2 inch OD NTPF threads.


h

Hey CoolRod! How many fingers am I holding up??! ;)

Do not taunt the UV Clarifier.

CoolROD 08-17-2003 11:10 AM

Here is the inner liner from the UV5. The small tube is quarts and is cemented to the plastic flanged piece. There is an o-ring that seals the plastic flanged piece to the UV5 body and another that seals the lid to it.
http://home.triad.rr.com/rodrunner/R...r Pics/UV3.jpg
The white area is the cement.

Here is a sketch that might help you...let me know what other dimensions you need. I got lazy drawing the socket b/c it has a lot of detail, but the dimensions are correct.
http://home.triad.rr.com/rodrunner/R...r Pics/UV4.jpg

edit: Are these 800 pixel width pictures too big for this forum?

CoolROD 08-17-2003 03:30 PM

Quote:

The bulb lies inside a quartz test tube. That way it never comes in contact with the water. In addition it does not release much heat into the water.
I guess that it is a figurative thing, but there is nearly five watts going into the water. That would be the total power put into the bulb minus the heat loss through the lid. Else the unit would heat until it melted or blew up.

h4rm0nix 08-17-2003 03:56 PM

Yes, very figurative.

There is heat add, just hardly noticed..

I'm loving mine.

H

Gooserider 08-18-2003 01:10 AM

Excellent sketch
 
Thanks for the great picture, I am starting to see how it could be done, although it would be kind of funky.

(BTW, the pictures seemed to work fine for the width of the screen, I had no trouble with them on my Linux box.)

As to the mod approach, (which would depend on the PVC being resistant to UV, or additional shielding (copper sheet? paint?) being added...)

I am assuming that the bulb basically slides into the socket so that the tube is inside the quartz part, and the base is in the adhesive lined part? Also that there is nothing other than the bulb socket that is vital to operation in the cap...

If so, how does this sound?

1. Neck the bottom 6" or so of the res out to about 2 or 2.5" ID pipe.

2. Put a 'T' fitting on the bottom so that the leg sticks out to the side. Put appropriate reducers and fittings to allow the pump to hook up.

3. Glue the tube assembly into the continuing part of the 'T' so that it sticks up through the fitting into the res pipe. It would probably be necessary to make an adaptor to fit the base (probably use a lathe to turn the hole in a threaded reducer to the right size) and also find an appropriate glue.

4. Hack the cap down to the socket and just enough other stuff to let you tape or clamp it over the end of the tube. (need to be able to remove it for bulb changes, but need light seal when operating)

This would (I hope) provide a non restrictive feed to the pump and get the unit in line w/o taking up to much additional space.

Of course it does require purchasing the entire unit, which as I recall is quite expensive...:(
This may mean I'll have to go with Airspirit's magic coolant formula for now and consider this mod as a 'phase II' improvement as I'm already overbudget on this... (Idle thought, would it be possible to buy just the quartz tube and the lamp? Would doing so be enough of a savings?)

Hmmm... I've just been reviewing the thread, and following some of the links... Two mildly disturbing notes on the Dr. Foster & Smith web site. 1st is a blurb on the main UV page
Quote:

Please note a UV sterilizer will not help with string algae.
Now I have noted a distinct lack of information on exactly WHAT kind of life forms inhabit our cooling systems, but at least one description (I think it was Airspirit, but don't quote me) said 'stringy ropy slime' or words to that effect.

2nd is a caution on the 'selection guide page:
Quote:

Operating Guidelines
While UV sterilizers usually do no harm, do not use one when you first cycle your aquarium, as it may kill beneficial bacteria before they attach to the bio-media or gravel. Also, many medications can be "denatured" by the UV light, so the sterilizer should be turned off when using medications, especially chelated copper treatments. The UV light will "break" the bond of the chelating agent, and the aquarium will have a sudden, lethal concentration of ionic copper.(emphasis added)
This suggests rather strongly that the UV approach is not a total solution, and that some additional biocide is needed...

Gooserider

CoolROD 08-18-2003 10:48 AM

I like your res idea and I think I can picture what you have in mind...here is my humble opinion:

Consider leaving out the tee, using an elbow or other means to attach the pump to the bottom and letting the UV clarifier be your top or lid to the res. You would have to have a water inlet so you could use your tee at the top or just tap the tube for hose barb(s). You might want to attach your pump to the res with some short length of hose to limit resonance / vibration.

That way you could buy it (the UV5) later and not even have to drain your water to put it in.

I have also noted the comment about string algae. It may be that this stuff is immobile and never gets washed through the system to see the UV light. That is the shortcoming of this approach to keeping a clean system. :(

I don't think that we need "beneficial bacteria" in our systems b/c we don't have anything we want digested.

Gooserider 08-18-2003 02:23 PM

Quote:

CoolROD: Consider leaving out the tee, using an elbow or other means to attach the pump to the bottom and letting the UV clarifier be your top or lid to the res.
Good idea, I thought of doing that at first, decided it wouldn't work. The top of my res will stick through the case, so that I have a fill point that is easy to get to, and is highly resistant to spill damage (any spillage would be outside the case) The inlets to the res will be at least 3-4" below the fill point. If I put the clarifier in the top, it would be mostly dosing the water sitting in the top of the res which probably sees less circulation than any other point in the system. OTOH, if I put it in the bottom, then it sees every drop that goes into the pump. Aside from draining the coolant, (which I'm going to make provisions to do easily) the retrofit wouldn't be that bad - I'd build the clarifier part first, then just cut the old res at the point where it would fit. Should be very straightforward.
Quote:

I have also noted the comment about string algae. It may be that this stuff is immobile and never gets washed through the system to see the UV light.
Thats my guess.
Quote:

That is the shortcoming of this approach to keeping a clean system.
True, but it might make the cleanouts less frequent.
Quote:

I don't think that we need "beneficial bacteria" in our systems b/c we don't have anything we want digested.
Agreed, I just put that comment in as further eveidence that the UV doesn't kill everything, so some kind of biocide would still be needed.

Gooserider

iggiebee 08-18-2003 02:33 PM

From the notes of an aquarist; One (obvious) thing you need to know about UV bacteria killers, is that they only kill bacteria that passes trhough the the tube containing the light.

This leaves plenty of other places for bacteria to grow on a water cooling system, such as the walls of the tubes, where the UV light will *never* reach.

My 2 cents.

Gooserider 08-18-2003 11:01 PM

Quote:

iggiebee From the notes of an aquarist; One (obvious) thing you need to know about UV bacteria killers, is that they only kill bacteria that passes trhough the the tube containing the light. This leaves plenty of other places for bacteria to grow on a water cooling system, such as the walls of the tubes, where the UV light will *never* reach.
This makes some sense, but how big of an issue is it?

Are you attempting to say that using a UV sanitizer is a relatively non-useful mod? (or at least not worth the money?)

Gooserider

bigben2k 08-19-2003 02:31 PM

I think that what makes sense here, is starting a rig fron new, and using the UV light to prevent the contamination from increasing. Some bio stuff might stick to wall, and some might live in the water, and some might just come off the rest of the loop to become free floating in the water. Those that float would get killed.

Althornin 08-19-2003 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
I think that what makes sense here, is starting a rig fron new, and using the UV light to prevent the contamination from increasing. Some bio stuff might stick to wall, and some might live in the water, and some might just come off the rest of the loop to become free floating in the water. Those that float would get killed.
agreed.
You cannot take a jacked up and slimed out system and fix it with the UV lights.
But i do think it would definately slow or stop a new system from developing such a problem.

CoolROD 08-20-2003 11:16 PM

That is what I am hoping, also -to prevent or slow growth in a new system.:D

Althornin 11-25-2003 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gooserider

Agreed, I just put that comment in as further eveidence that the UV doesn't kill everything, so some kind of biocide would still be needed.

Gooserider

I just re-read this thread, and i have to disagree.
The comment is about this quote:
Quote:

While UV sterilizers usually do no harm, do not use one when you first cycle your aquarium, as it may kill beneficial bacteria before they attach to the bio-media or gravel. Also, many medications can be "denatured" by the UV light, so the sterilizer should be turned off when using medications, especially chelat
They are saying the UV DOES kill everything, so turn it off until the bacteria can attach to your gravel, etc.
So in our case, just make sure you start with a clean system and no worries - bacteria never live long enough to attach.

(iu know its like a huge thread resurrection, but i missed the end of this thread and felt the need to speak!)

georgeteo 11-25-2003 10:52 PM

Haven't read through the entire post but this is my suggestion.
Water baddies need sunlight to grow right??
Why not cut off the sunlight for a day or 2 by covering your comp with a blanket

Just a thought ....... :D

Gooserider 12-01-2003 10:18 PM

Quote:

georgeteo Haven't read through the entire post but this is my suggestion. Water baddies need sunlight to grow right?? Why not cut off the sunlight for a day or 2 by covering your comp with a blanket Just a thought .......
Not all of them do. Microbes are amazingly versatile critters, and many can either grow on multiple different methods depending on what is available, or go dormant until what they need becomes available again... Shutting off the lights would probably slow them down for as long as the lights were off, but as soon as they came back on the critters would be waiting to pick up where they left off.... These things are far harder to kill than larger lifeforms like plants, pets, and people...

Gooserider

Althornin 12-01-2003 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gooserider
Not all of them do. Microbes are amazingly versatile critters, and many can either grow on multiple different methods depending on what is available, or go dormant until what they need becomes available again... Shutting off the lights would probably slow them down for as long as the lights were off, but as soon as they came back on the critters would be waiting to pick up where they left off.... These things are far harder to kill than larger lifeforms like plants, pets, and people...

Gooserider

As GooseRider says, cutting off the lights just makes a different form of microbes grow. Trust me, i tried it. My res is clear, and int he light, certain organisms were growing. I blocked light to it for three weeks, and all that got me was different organisms...

Dunno 12-03-2003 04:27 PM

This is a great idea and an interesting read!
I like the idea of a pump-res-light combo.

The problem I see with this is that if the bug is not in the presence of the light for long enough it could survive and mutate and become UV resistant. The only way I can think of to solve this is to have a large light container so that the water/bugs slow down and spend long enough in the light's presence to die completely. A problem considering that these things are already big.

A container with a mirror interior surface will probably help as the light is then reflected back into the water , to do more work, rather than absorbed by the container walls. Dont know how to make or where to find something like that.

Another potential problem: Having the pump in the presence of the light could pose a problem as the plastic they are made from may not be UV resistant. Unless its an outdoor pump maybe.

Keep up the good work! :)

h4rm0nix 01-05-2004 06:02 PM

5 months of UV Goodness, here's skinny on the aftermath
 
Being one of the original pioneers of this method of biomatter containment I figured it was high time to post my results after 5 months of running with a UV Clarifier.

First, to start this off, I was in dire straights, having had a massive algae bloom that ruined my pump, I was stuck starting from scratch with a completely new tube setup. So XX$s and an hour later I had my new tubes in place and began the "scrubbing" session of running on pinesol and water for awhile.

A few hours later I was happy with the results, as the black stuff was long gone.

So I hooked in the UV Clarifier, added coolant (water, Antifreeze, Algaecide), purged as much air as I could, and decided to let it ride.

After about 3 months I noticed some brown algae growing on the sides of the tubes, but it was nothing fierce and didn't really impede flow. However, at the six month mark it's starting to be a problem, temps getting up to 47C, not too good for WC...

So I'm back to the same old problem. How to have a system that works, is quiet, and has no bugs, ever.

Is this even possible? To read the trade sites and forums it seems everyone has sparkling clear tubes but me.

Ahh hell.

So, just to let you know, the UV Clarifier does make life better, for a time, but in the end, it only contains the biomatter to a point.

"Life finds a way."

So, can I run on something other than water and not go blind from the fumes?

H

georgeteo 01-05-2004 07:51 PM

I've been using only Swiftech HydrX solution (1 bottle to 1l of tap water) for 3mths now since setting up my watercooling setup. I've changed the configuration of my setup a few times ... that means exposing the water+solution to air on a number of occasions. But I would reintroduce the same solution back into the setup after each alteration. To this date ... not a single 'water creature' was seen lurkig in my watercooling setup.

I believe that these solutions will help curb the growth of new 'water creatures' only if there were none in the water in the first place. Maybe you already have a bunch of them living happily in your radiator which later moved house and expanded throughout your watercooling setup.

I'd suggest removing EVERY single component in your watercooling setup and cleaning it throughly.

ZapWizard 01-06-2004 05:09 PM

I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but I noticed that Radioshack is selling the replacement UV bulbs for their bateria killing air filters.
I look like it would be an easy mod to attach to a cooling kit.

But I also know that UV can damage lots of types of plastics and acrilics.

Gooserider 01-07-2004 06:38 PM

Thanks for the update h4rm0nix, I appreciate the information.

I guess the bottom line question is whether looking at the UV setup in retrospect, do you think the money was worth it, or would you have been better off with a different solution?

Quote:

So I'm back to the same old problem. How to have a system that works, is quiet, and has no bugs, ever. ... So, can I run on something other than water and not go blind from the fumes?
Well I agree with georgeteo in that it sounds to me like you have either a reserve of critters living somewhere in your system that isn't getting killed by your cleaning methods, or possibly that you are somehow contaminating your setup when you refill it.

One possibility that occurs to me is that if you have a multi tube design rad (like a heater core) you might have a single tube that's blocked up with life forms. Since the tube is blocked, your solvent doesn't circulate through it, and the bugs in the middle don't get killed. Then once you go back to a non-lethal solution, they expand back into the system. I think the only cure is to run a constantly biocidal coolant formula, and take the cooling performance hit that comes with less than pure water.

I would point you at airspirit's comments elsewhere on the site, as he seems to have found both a cleaning formula that gets rid of the bugs and a cooling blend that stops them from coming back...

Good luck,

Gooserider

h4rm0nix 01-07-2004 07:01 PM

Was it worth it...
 
It's really hard to say, if it was worth it or not. I didn't get any real algae blooms again, in fact the only real thing that happened was the tubes browned some. Like I said before, I went something like six months without any need to flush, so I guess that's pretty good.

The cost? I can't recall how expensive the device was, something like $75 dollars I think. Worth it for that amount, if you can take incorporate it into your case, however, remember, it's too big for most cases so it's going to require a side mount.

Bottom line. If your in a boat like mine, very tired of getting critters, and can't seem to find out what will work, this device just may work for you.

It's done more for me than I expected it would.


H

AntiBling 01-12-2004 08:34 PM

Do wc systems that are completely in the dark inside a case with no lights still get algae in them? Just curious. Seems like having no light on it has got to help quite a bit. I built my system to keep the lines in the dark, and provided a way to quickly evacuate the system with a wet vac and refill. Never thought of using UV light though so this thread is most interesting. Reducing maintenance=GOOD.

h4rm0nix 01-12-2004 08:54 PM

Yes, from what others say, there are algae that can live in complete darkness.

I'm no biologist, but I would think some of them can live on that nice warm water and nutrient rich tube linings.

As far as the UV goes.. I would say this.. if you can afford the $70 dollars for a UV clarifier, spend twice that and get some Fluorinert, http://www.hamptonresearch.com/hrproducts/2797.html....

It's a 3M product, use it instead of water, it's dielectric and I would bet nothing can be live in it.

h

CoolROD 01-15-2004 09:40 PM

h4rm0nix -You have lost me on this stuff. Please explain.

"Use it instead of Water" ?? What are some of it's properties?


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