LOL, I looked at that site and even with my GCSE German and the Google translator I didn't get anywhere :rolleyes: Oh well, let me know if you find anything.

BTW, it's only 1/8" ID? Craaaaazzzzyyyy! :evilaugh:

Humm. One thing I never understood about this "quiet" vrs. "performance" argument is that the higher the block performs the quieter you should be able to get the system. :shrug: If the block can remove MORE heat (higher performance) then you will need a smaller/slower/quieter fan on the rad.... This holds true if the high performance block works better at lower flow rates than a lesser block.

I don't know. Hell right now I got an XP1700+ running on a $5 HS with a 60mm to 80mm fan adapter with a 25CFM 80mm fan and it runs comfortly at 45-50C. That is also my gaming system. I can hear the hard drive over the HSF and I got a fairly quiet hard drive. Sure I probably couldn't do that with a faster processor but I don't need a faster processor. Plays all the games I play just fine UT2003/4 included.

I guess it is up to the user and their requirements. :cool:

On the noise thing, one thing I've noticed with the impingement blocks and powerful pumps is that the blocks do develop a real "hissing" noise. With the "Storm" (which is also doing other things to stir the water up) and using really what are quite dramatically high pressure drops (11mH2O) the block is certainly about as noisy as a case-fan. Dropping back to a more realistic 3mH2O "high-end" level and the noise is audible with your ear near it, but not at any distance.

Perhaps something to consider in the quest for more pumping power.

I tell ya - trying to squeeze even the quite squishable Tygon tubing at 11mH2O (~16PSI) is quite an effort. The tubing certainly does expand quite visibly when the pumps are engaged, which I guess can be something of an argument for 3/8" ID tubing with restrictive blocks. When the pressure's on, the tubing expands and essentially has a larger ID and a consequentially lower pressure drop as a result.

Just random thoughts...

I think in the near future we will see the move to 3/4" tubing. This is what I am using and have been pleased with the results so far. If anything the fittings can sometimes be easier to find. As for 3/8ths, fo-get-about it. Even 1/2" is pushing twoard the low performance end. These days you gotta go big. Wait around to long and Dell will release a watercooled PC with 1/2" tubing. :cool:

hmm - maybe you need to design in some acoustic damping ;)

Titan151,

What pump, rad & blocks are in your set up?

the question is: are any (reasonably expected) European flow rates expected below 0.5gpm ?

one needs be mindful of the actual pump capability in these smaller ID systems, the friction losses are low specifically because the fluid velocity is also low

Agreed. The WCP testbed is a fairly bad indication as it uses a very high restriction radiator which challenges even the most restrictive waterblocks for flow-choking ability.

0.5GPM is perhaps a realistic minimum for any system that uses a heater-core style radiator. I could not imagine a system pushing less than 0.25GPM though, even with the continuous small-ID looped tubing radiators though.

For a lark I bought this baby 2.5W 200LPH pump that's about 40x40x30mm in size with 1/4" OD outlets on it (about 4.5mm ID) with a 65cm head height. Even that tiny thing could push around 1.5LPM (~0.4GPM) through two heater-cores in series, 2m of tubing and a Cascade SS.

Yes an International evaluation. :)

Different types of categories, different types of setups, example: Single Rad category.
IMO using the same Fans is more comparable.
The Internal Diameter is already under observation anyway.
The results on evaluation could also be concluded on to Performance vs Price difference.


My 2cents

Watercooling.de sell it and accept international PayPal payments:


CF-1 Socket A/CF-1 Socket 478
(I think both mounting methods are included with the block anyway so the distinction isn't really necessary).

CF-1 Upgrade set

Don't have much other than silent kits but can hold to that sort of noise floor.

Sorry mate, not just yet.

Having the liberty to pick & choose easily from either side, you'll find users in both camps. CM tends to lean toward the US approach whilst I am more towards the German.
As you surmise, things have progressed toward reaching a more common ground... the tubing diameter has increased slightly for us and appears to be decreasing for the other camp. Hence the ability to consider this sort of head to head more easily, I'm sure.

Don't worry too much about sourcing the CF-2 just yet. As far as I am aware, the block I propose is more on a par with the Murks3 (not in mass-production - in the same way that your own blocks could be held in comparison to the Dtek WW).


As mentioned, that's not just a US-centric concern.

I know of several users of German systems in Japan, fwiw. I'm sure there are proponents of both camps there though, much like the UK.

A figure of 52,1l/h @ 0,11bar was bandied about yesterday in regards to one of the high scorers in those tests fwiw.
Don't worry about footing the bill for the block when one is on offer - better to donate the cash to pH's testbench fund if you ask me. Rest assured, the block I propose will be in the WCP chart soon enough for your reference. :)

See above. I'll let you guys use your better judgement on that one (your testing experience far outweighs my own, obviously :))

Well, with the level of expertise here, I think it would be fairly straightforward to assess potential ease of installation without actually purchasing said case. again, rather said necessary funds were funnelled towards testbench components for future benefit to all.


By the way - for those still obsessed with working to a price point ... (emphasis mine) was the original statement. We've moved on from there in the interests of practical achievement toI'm not going to get silly about it - many of you know I have a production radiator on my shelf that has mounts as standard for fifteen 120mm fans ... ;)


side note - no sleep last night for me so sorry if I missed out any pertinent points...

a tester's perspective, with a cup of coffee:

it is clear form the above, and my own investigations of mini WCing systems, that very low flow rates do exist, <60 lph (0.3 gpm), and that wbs could well be designed to operate in this range
- is this not the crux of the German/US 'debate' ?

this being the case, 0.5 gpm is too high a minimum

I personally have always included 0.3 gpm (68.1 lph) as the initial datum
- this is at the extreme of a magnetic flow meter's capability with a 1/4" (10mm) flowtube due to the low fluid velocity

to those not familiar with low flow test results, rude surprises are in store

I guess people are getting a taste of it w/ the 0.5GPM numbers for Danger Den wbs Bill.

and JATO assist at 0.3gpm

I am not sure I follow that comment (JATO has to do with Automobile specs right?)

0.3GPM is below the 1% range of my flowmeter...

I would think that real small pumps, 8mm lines, Papst low noise/pressure fans, and water blocks designed to work with them would make for very compact, and very silent systems. As someone else posted, easy to fit in mid tower cases.

The MCP6000 that pH just tested was the best to date (pH's testing) at low flows. Was part of it's desinging done with the EU market in mind?

Wow! That was a hell of a lot to read.

While I am not very active here, I thought I would put in my 2cents worth. I have several WC setups and just posted a reivew at Gruntville of the Alphacool Cape Kit like the one at the top of that page.

I have also built/reviewied a "typical American" setup with the PolarFLO SF block, Eheim 1250, BIX2, 1/2" tubing, etc. In addition, I have had on this setup the MCW-5002 and Whitewater.

Now, I admit my testing is not nearly as scientific as what the gang here does. However, I do think that it is at least accurate enough to give you an good idea of how this stuff performs in the real world. And since I have experience with both types of setups, I can sum up the differences pretty good, depending upon your situation. So here goes....

If you are an Exteme Overclocker....

.... then brute force is what you are looking for. Every degree counts. So go with a big 1/2"ID system and the PolarFLO/RBX/WW/MCW6000 block of your choice. Put the biggest pump you can in there and a radiator from a Kenworth and go to town D:

For the casual overclocker and hardcore gamer (we all know most games don't like the extreme overclocks)....

... then you have a choice to make. The top German kits perform much better then "adequate" and will keep your system nice and cool and look good doing it. However, since only the Innovatek and Asetek kits seem to be easily available in the US, it might be cheaper to go the "big" route. It will come down to costs and aesthetics.

For the quite PC person....

... you have a similar choice as the casual overclocker, but would lean more towards the German-style kits 'cause they are quieter.

I happen to really like the German kits for water cooling a smaller case, like an Antec P160 or even a SFF system. Heck, look at the Y2K Bug that Mashie dd. You would never fit a 1/2" system in that thing.

I guess the bottom line is that each person much prioritize what they are looking for in a water cooling kit. Think of performance, noise, ease of use, and aestehtics. How you rate each one will determine which approach works for you.

Errm... JATO is a solid fueled booster rocket designed to be strapped to a large cargo plane for short takeoffs with heavy payloads... I guess bill thinks it will be quite restrictive :D

correctly stated DN

every product has a 'feature set', and its how the consumer weights the particular attributes that determines what is 'best', for that particular user

I do not believe even in the notion of a universally best kit (or anything)

Blackeagle
no and yes, the P-Q curve is a consequence of the decision to go with a closed impeller
(lower flow at low head, higher at higher)

pH
JATO = jet assisted take off
as in a C130 lifting off in 150' or such, film clips are stupendous

- have to work on finding you a good flow meter
I have a surplus Sparling (2), in pieces, not working; do you have access to a good tech ?
-> is there a reader who could assist ?

JATO: Jet Assisted Take Off. It's indeed a solid fuel booster rocket. There's a myth that someone strapped one to a car, then crashed into a cliff... :rolleyes:

As for the US vs German points of view, what I see in general is the stereotypical "bigger is better" for the US, and "less is more" for "Germany" (which is actually more European, not just German). Personally, I prefer the latter, but the way we get there, is by first pushing the extreme of "how big can we make it?".

For example, we've discovered that a massively large pump actually decreases performance, as it adds a significant amount of heat into a loop.

Similarly, I'm sure Zalman is discovering a number of interesting things from developing the huge "flower" HSF.

I have a friend in chemical engineering (none in civil regrettably). Let me drop him an e-mail and see whether they have techs there who could rebuild.

Sorry, just going back to the original thought of why US typically uses 1/2" and why Europe uses smaller - I went to a plumbing shop recently and found that nothing was sold in 1/2" and instead was usually smaller. Maybe that's something to do with why we originally started down this route? (I might even be totally wrong, I was probably looking in the wrong section or something :P)

they tried that on myth busters. they got an old heavy car to about 160 but it didnt take off. 160 is kind of slow too, im dissapointed. shouldve used a stripped CRX or something, THAT would take off ;)

You're right.

Lower flow rates don't warrant the use of 1/2" tubing: 3/8" is quite sufficient.

Here, state side, 1/2" fittings are more common (at least within my experience) read cheap, and aren't really an inconvenience to use.

Flow rates of 0.75-1LPM eh?

Doesn't that then get into the intent of a design? The impingement designs totally rely on adequate pumping pressure to get their cooling performance.

A large number (almost all?) of the "USA" designs, mine included, are totally inadequate to cope with those sorts of flow rates. Crap, I don't even test at anything below about 2LPM, and even then such a result is just a curiosity for me as that sort of flow rate is already well outside of my targetted flow rate range, upcoming designs included. That the blocks that I make with ~1mm bases perform anywhere near as well as they do at such levels is perhaps somewhat of a total surprise to me.

Getting back to a car analogy, this is perhaps somewhat equivalent to running said Ferrari on diesoleum.

This becomes more of an issue of the focus of the testbed. A good testbed will test blocks across a range of flow rates, especially including those for which the blocks were designed to operate at.

I am now left with no wonder as to why no one understands what the sorts of performance differences between the US vs German types of blocks are. At 1LPM at 100W though, and I have almost no fear in stating that the USA blocks when run at their intended flow rates will take the lead.

I agree, Cathar...I think I realized why impingement works
 

I think you are right that "USA" style blocks will start beating out the low-flowers at higher flow rates. But thats because most US blocks now use two things that I think you basically invented: put the water-in nozzle over the core, and create impingement by breaking up the waterflow as it enters the block, as it comes in contact with the core. Strange thing, just about nobody puts the nozzles on the corners of blocks anymore. Wonder why? :)

You need high power pumps to do that effectively. What gets me is now you see some really well made and designed iterations of that philosophy in German blocks like the NexXxos 3 from Alphacool.de, yet they persist in using 8mm tubing. I wonder how well that block would perform with 1/2" tubing? To again return to the car analogy, its like putting a 2-barrel carb on a 7 liter dragster motor: for either subject, you need to "feed the beast!"

Well that's one thing that bench testing of wbs will show presumably. This graph might be relevant:

http://www.procooling.com/~phaestus/temp/wbcomparo3.jpg

I finished running the rev3 today. I put 1/2" plastic hosebarbs on it for ease of use (and for lowered flow resistance). No big surprise as far as performance goes I think considering its design.

you forget so quickly
considering its age (i.e. the competition), it was an Excellent wb (and I said so)

as did I (used one in my main rig for many months in fact). I meant its performance wasn't a surprise partially because I've seen you post results before.

I have a HeatKiller 1.5 here too. Trying to figure out how to keep it from being a CPUKiller; if I get comfortable w/ its mounting I'll run it this week too.

misunderstood, sorry
a very under-appreciated wb