Really did sue, and Agg really did have to go to court a number of times and OCAU very nearly got shut down as a result due to legal expenses draining money away from supporting the forum's existence.

I believe that since the "No Vendor Verdict Policy" has come into play, there have only been threats as such posts get moderated as normal practise now, and so the reason to sue gets removed.

It doesn't matter that OCAU wins every time, it's more just a time-wasting exercise, much like how large companies bully smaller companies into submission by filing for frivilous lawsuits to drain their coffers due to legal expenses. Doesn't matter that the small person is perfectly in the right and once the matter finally goes to court it's a near instant open/shut case.

Read the 3rd bottom paragraph of this Joe. http://www.overclockers.com.au/forum_rules.shtml

This was about JSE specifically and not about the products he sells. If he sells cheaply made Chinese rads thats all good. If he goes around saying those rads get .015C/W and then refuse to substantiate the claim then he needs to be stuck on a rotisserie until he does or disappears all together. He can't sue for being called out as a liar, especially when he is....

Also I find OCAU's stance as chicken shit if what you say above is how it is there. If your not going to allow negative input about a commercial product then you have no business reviewing them either eh? Sounds pretty low on objectivity?

not sure OCAU is a review site
their laws are different jd, Agg's position is a consequence

BTW, the CoolWave rads are NOT 'cheaply made' if you are referring to their construction, I've got a bunch of them

did he not counter sue for costs?

I guess on the laws. Still don't see any reason for them to do reviews if they can't be objective for whatever reason. As for the rad construction it is whatever it is. I have yet to see any proof either way from a reseller of the things. Is it better than the other "best" as brought up by JSE?

Also, as you know, just because it isn't cheaply made dosn't meen it performs well. I imagine they do alright though if they are based of current design.

I would assume so, and he would have won them, but up until that time you're out of pocket the whole way, plus people tend to have other things to do than fight legal battles when you're a one-man team running an internet forum.

I think the attitude now is simply to remove both the claims and the complaints.

Agg told me that he didn't know enough about the radiator issue to simply remove the posts. I can't remove them without be subjected to bleats of bias. So the thread was simply locked (by Agg).

As I said, I can understand the reasoning also... being MainAdmin at O-CuK holds the same issues for me as being mod at OCAU does for Cathar, so his stance I perfectly understand...
It's a weary world being a global mod on a large forum. O-CuK got the reputation of being a Nazi Regime here in the Uk due to our strict rules (that 80% of all forums in the UK run with, we just get singlehanded out due to the fact we actually enforce them), but those rules are there to protect both myself as the forum owner and my users at the end of the day. Constantly having to laydown the law and take the verbal backlash by PM in silence takes it's toll on you and decisions have to be made for the sake of keeping the piece despite the controversial topic...

We're fortunate in the UK that folks don't try to sue over forum antics... or that no-one has so far...

I understand that completely. Closing that post was ok, would have been better with a different explanation though.

What I am bothered by is what their definition of defamatory is? If they don't allow negative input torwards vendors then how could they post an objective review of a product if that review has negatives in it? :shrug:

Anyway I will drop it, I really have nothing much to argue about. :D

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...85#post4928885

Just for JSE, cause he asked so nicely

Haha, he called you biased? Biased of what? :D

So kind of you to post it Minion.

Hes got some kind of dilusion that i am cathars minion, and that i have something to gain by siding with him.

Its quite hilarious, he refuses to post numbers, talks out his arse, and generally makes a complete fool of himself. He fails to realise that I simply dont like shit talkers, it has nothing to do with siding with anyone.

Like Cathar needs a "minion". His work is actually validated and speaks for itself.

jse
you catch posts 100 - 104 in this thread ?
I do hope your patent covers the technology that will re-write Physics

and, like Bruce, I'm curious to know how CoolWave rads relate to your patent

don't sweat not having data on the CoolWave rads, I do

So glad you have data BillA. When you want to share give me a yell......... please. As to your other comments well what can I say.......I will live without them I suppose....but only just.

Only delusion I have Etacovda is that these forums are becoming a good grounding place for the likes of you. Anway more important things to do than conecrn myself about this lot....Bye.

Why cut and run? All you have to do is prove yourself? Why would that be a challenge? :shrug:

There is no challenge jaydee when you call people liars you have already completed any future dialog. Pity really we all used to be water coolers not businessmen.

I am up in the air right now. You make some unrealistic claims and then refuse to substantiate them with various unrealistic excuses. All you have to do is prove it. Cathar has done so with all he has done, you have not. Do you even comprehend the difference?

Just have to be honest man. All it takes. Also I am not a business man, I have no stake in anyone.

"Only delusion I have Etacovda is that these forums are becoming a good grounding place for the likes of you"

• noun a belief or impression that is not in accordance with a generally accepted reality.

You realise that that means that you think that this _isnt_ becoming a good grounding place for the likes of me? perhaps you should learn english before trying to use it in an argument... next time put quotations around delusion so it seems sarcastic; actually, even then it still wouldnt make sense, so perhaps re-think it.

Take a long hard look at yourself JSE, you dodge easy questions... why? Procooling has long been thought of as 'the home of the bastards, cynics and assholes', but thats generally by people such as yourself, that are not conclusive.

Obviously this does mean something to you, for you to come here and argue it. For what? come on JSE, none of your customers read here, you can stop bullshitting.

Be careful guys. Paranoia abounds here.

Anyone who subscribes to the philosophy that when manufacturer or reseller makes claims that they then should be backed up with adequate proof, JSE then believes that such people are all delusional minions of myself.

I must say that I feel somewhat privileged to be held in such a position of supposed rulership over those who believe that people who disclose performance figures should be forthright about how such was achieved. Shit, I must be at least 1000 years old because this is a fundamental tenet of scientific practise. Better check the ol' noggin for scars that may indicate amnesia has taken place 'cos I certaintly don't remember founding any ancient universities, teaching Isaac Newton, or Archimedes.

Yep. Says a lot doesn't it?

ooh look, hes gone quiet and isnt posting
anyone else surprised?






thought not.

I am sure the manufacturer of these rads don't have the figures concerned.

He can't share - he's not exactly a private citizen, works for Swiftech (which he's very open about, BTW - no dark secret or anything). So... the issue is that if he releases data on a competitor's product he opens Swiftech up to at least the possibility of a lawsuit from that competitor (unclear to me whether internet-sharing would become a libel or slander case).
IMHO, Bill's testing is good enough that IMHO there would never be a possibility of the suit succeeding, but it costs money and attention - and even more money and attention if you want to counter-sue for costs (and even then you don't get anything back for the lost attention).
So he has to be coy.
Being usually quite blunt and outspoken, this has gotta be a hard thing...

bob, that misses an entirely different issue of competition. Swiftech is materially hurt by giving competitors the result of their hard labor. Bill works darn hard getting that test data, and there's no reason to give the competing companies that do NOT invest in R&D any assistance.

Businesses help their partner not their competitors.

edit: Bill could actually be criminally charged if he publishes that data! It would be a crime against the Swiftech investors if he devalues the company by helping the competition. Economic sabotage/theft is a crime.

Well, sure - if he published a complete set of data, like he did, say, for the thermochill series of rads - although I don't think that data hurt Swiftech in any way. I was thinking more along the line of a couple of illustrative data points (which they could rebut by publishing their own curves - which we'd then tear up for being badly wrong for any of a number of reasons :) - or they could just opt to snarl Swiftech in lawyers :( )

Well, back when the ThermoChill data was done, BillA didn't work for Swiftech - but as far as NOW goes, as long as the data published shows Swiftech at the top of the pack, then there's no harm releasing the data. The trick then becomes ensuring Swiftech's product IS at the top of the pack... we all know and would never accuse Bill of falsifying data to ensure one product comes out better than the other... so going on Bill's own ethics and those stood by by more or less everyone else on here, all Swiftech have to do is get a rad that beats all the others by the figures. The review then shows everyone elses products to be worse.

It's only of detriment to Swiftech if the material released shows Swiftech's own product to be worse than those compared to.

But yes, as pointed out, Bill also has to be careful not to basically work for the competition by giving them data which they need but don't have and don't have the ability to acquire for themselves... this makes the whole comparison review idea very tricky when the person writing the review represents one of the manufacturer's contained.

As en example only, the currently-unrated chinese rads would get significant benefit from having testing data to show... whether it shows them to be better than one or another is irrelevant, having the testing data to start with counts for a lot. It's better than an item with NO testing data whatsoever imo.

Next problem - to say one rad is better than another, one must show proof. The only way to prove this is to rate all rads concerned and show how the rating was achieved. Suddenly you're handing over on a plate the one thing the competition lacks.

The simple solution is for an independant party to review ALL the rads in question. However, for that data to be of use, it must meet a certain standard.

Back to the good old problem - plenty of rads, but no-one out there to independantly undertake reviewing them all, whilst still being able to produce work to the standard required.

So, long n' short of it - the data can be shared under certain circumstances. Bill is well aware of what the watercooling community requires to make it's decision, and I have no doubt that he will provide it, but only when the right set of circumstances occurs. This simply becomes a case of, from a tied-to-a-company stance, if you want to write a comparative review of your own products and do so honestly, your product must be the best out of those reviewed, literally. Until it is, don't publish the review. Keep tweaking the product until it is, THEN publish the review. S'always better to have a target to beat when designing something, so comparative reviewing becomes an important and lengthy part of an already lengthy R&D > Fabrication process.

waffling - done!

spot on as usual Marci
"An Appraisal of Radiator Performance" in the works
and indeed it took a BUNCH of tweaking

Which part of the community? Those here or the 'bling bling', 'cheap as a used heater core' crowd? heh heh. :p