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-   General Liquid/Water Cooling Discussion (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   Sub forum for Radiator Design (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12069)

Cathar 08-23-2005 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
People sue for defamation? I mean really sue? or just talk about it. because it seems 99% of the internet is all talk, and no game.
Really did sue, and Agg really did have to go to court a number of times and OCAU very nearly got shut down as a result due to legal expenses draining money away from supporting the forum's existence.

I believe that since the "No Vendor Verdict Policy" has come into play, there have only been threats as such posts get moderated as normal practise now, and so the reason to sue gets removed.

It doesn't matter that OCAU wins every time, it's more just a time-wasting exercise, much like how large companies bully smaller companies into submission by filing for frivilous lawsuits to drain their coffers due to legal expenses. Doesn't matter that the small person is perfectly in the right and once the matter finally goes to court it's a near instant open/shut case.

phextwin 08-23-2005 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
People sue for defamation? I mean really sue? or just talk about it. because it seems 99% of the internet is all talk, and no game.
Read the 3rd bottom paragraph of this Joe. http://www.overclockers.com.au/forum_rules.shtml

jaydee 08-23-2005 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
OCAU exposes liars all the time, but what are we going to do?

I moderate the EC forums but deliberately take a very stepped-back approach to such issues because more than once I've had such people level allegations at me for being unfairly biased for even doing something as simple as asking probing questions like any concerned forum member would do. This is to be expected though, 'cos, you know, even though I have only ever exercised my moderative powers to move threads about that get posted in the wrong forum or to delete out and out abusive posts, I MUST be very heavily biased to do something as heavy handed as to ask questions.

The rest of the overall OCAU forum moderation practises fall under a delicate balance of stepping around arse-hole rip-off merchants who are only too happy to sue OCAU for defamation on the basis that it condones slanderous statements against said arse-hole merchants by not forcibly removing such statements.

Now this is not to say that anyone in the EC forum has acted in that way, but it has happened in the past with various vendors who didn't like the stories of negative feedback being posted on OCAU after they ripped someone off. Even though OCAU has won every single legal battle on the basis that it is not responsible for the posts of its members and members have the right of free speech, Agg @ OCAU has been forced into a position where it is just easier to moderate potential vendor verdict posts/topics than to be repeatedly dragged through the courts wasting his time and money in legal expenses.

This is the main reason why OCAU in general removes/moderates anything which can be deemed as a vendor verdict. It is purely because it seems that if there are enough arse-holes who attack the right of free speech of pointing out what arseholes they're being, then rather than attack the speaker it's easier and more convenient to attack the forum thereby modifying the forum's policies to prevent such free speech.

So that's why OCAU is the way it is. It's a situation of legal convenience.
This was about JSE specifically and not about the products he sells. If he sells cheaply made Chinese rads thats all good. If he goes around saying those rads get .015C/W and then refuse to substantiate the claim then he needs to be stuck on a rotisserie until he does or disappears all together. He can't sue for being called out as a liar, especially when he is....

Also I find OCAU's stance as chicken shit if what you say above is how it is there. If your not going to allow negative input about a commercial product then you have no business reviewing them either eh? Sounds pretty low on objectivity?

BillA 08-23-2005 08:43 PM
not sure OCAU is a review site
their laws are different jd, Agg's position is a consequence

BTW, the CoolWave rads are NOT 'cheaply made' if you are referring to their construction, I've got a bunch of them

Etacovda 08-23-2005 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Really did sue, and Agg really did have to go to court a number of times and OCAU very nearly got shut down as a result due to legal expenses draining money away from supporting the forum's existence.

I believe that since the "No Vendor Verdict Policy" has come into play, there have only been threats as such posts get moderated as normal practise now, and so the reason to sue gets removed.

It doesn't matter that OCAU wins every time, it's more just a time-wasting exercise, much like how large companies bully smaller companies into submission by filing for frivilous lawsuits to drain their coffers due to legal expenses. Doesn't matter that the small person is perfectly in the right and once the matter finally goes to court it's a near instant open/shut case.
did he not counter sue for costs?

jaydee 08-23-2005 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unregistered
not sure OCAU is a review site
their laws are different jd, Agg's position is a consequence

BTW, the CoolWave rads are NOT 'cheaply made' if you are referring to their construction, I've got a bunch of them
I guess on the laws. Still don't see any reason for them to do reviews if they can't be objective for whatever reason. As for the rad construction it is whatever it is. I have yet to see any proof either way from a reseller of the things. Is it better than the other "best" as brought up by JSE?

Also, as you know, just because it isn't cheaply made dosn't meen it performs well. I imagine they do alright though if they are based of current design.

Cathar 08-23-2005 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
did he not counter sue for costs?
I would assume so, and he would have won them, but up until that time you're out of pocket the whole way, plus people tend to have other things to do than fight legal battles when you're a one-man team running an internet forum.

Cathar 08-23-2005 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee
Also I find OCAU's stance as chicken shit if what you say above is how it is there. If your not going to allow negative input about a commercial product then you have no business reviewing them either eh? Sounds pretty low on objectivity?
I think the attitude now is simply to remove both the claims and the complaints.

Agg told me that he didn't know enough about the radiator issue to simply remove the posts. I can't remove them without be subjected to bleats of bias. So the thread was simply locked (by Agg).

Marci 08-24-2005 05:05 AM
As I said, I can understand the reasoning also... being MainAdmin at O-CuK holds the same issues for me as being mod at OCAU does for Cathar, so his stance I perfectly understand...
It's a weary world being a global mod on a large forum. O-CuK got the reputation of being a Nazi Regime here in the Uk due to our strict rules (that 80% of all forums in the UK run with, we just get singlehanded out due to the fact we actually enforce them), but those rules are there to protect both myself as the forum owner and my users at the end of the day. Constantly having to laydown the law and take the verbal backlash by PM in silence takes it's toll on you and decisions have to be made for the sake of keeping the piece despite the controversial topic...

We're fortunate in the UK that folks don't try to sue over forum antics... or that no-one has so far...

jaydee 08-24-2005 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I think the attitude now is simply to remove both the claims and the complaints.

Agg told me that he didn't know enough about the radiator issue to simply remove the posts. I can't remove them without be subjected to bleats of bias. So the thread was simply locked (by Agg).
I understand that completely. Closing that post was ok, would have been better with a different explanation though.

What I am bothered by is what their definition of defamatory is? If they don't allow negative input torwards vendors then how could they post an objective review of a product if that review has negatives in it? :shrug:

Anyway I will drop it, I really have nothing much to argue about. :D

Etacovda 08-25-2005 07:29 PM
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...85#post4928885

Just for JSE, cause he asked so nicely

jaydee 08-25-2005 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etacovda
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...85#post4928885

Just for JSE, cause he asked so nicely
Haha, he called you biased? Biased of what? :D

Javascripterror 08-25-2005 08:36 PM
So kind of you to post it Minion.

Etacovda 08-25-2005 08:42 PM
Hes got some kind of dilusion that i am cathars minion, and that i have something to gain by siding with him.

Its quite hilarious, he refuses to post numbers, talks out his arse, and generally makes a complete fool of himself. He fails to realise that I simply dont like shit talkers, it has nothing to do with siding with anyone.

jaydee 08-25-2005 08:50 PM
Like Cathar needs a "minion". His work is actually validated and speaks for itself.

BillA 08-25-2005 08:51 PM
jse
you catch posts 100 - 104 in this thread ?
I do hope your patent covers the technology that will re-write Physics

and, like Bruce, I'm curious to know how CoolWave rads relate to your patent

don't sweat not having data on the CoolWave rads, I do

Javascripterror 08-25-2005 09:03 PM
So glad you have data BillA. When you want to share give me a yell......... please. As to your other comments well what can I say.......I will live without them I suppose....but only just.

Only delusion I have Etacovda is that these forums are becoming a good grounding place for the likes of you. Anway more important things to do than conecrn myself about this lot....Bye.

jaydee 08-25-2005 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javascripterror
So glad you have data BillA. When you want to share give me a yell......... please. As to your other comments well what can I say.......I will live without them I suppose....but only just.

Only delusion I have Etacovda is that these forums are becoming a good grounding place for the likes of you. Anway more important things to do than conecrn myself about this lot....Bye.
Why cut and run? All you have to do is prove yourself? Why would that be a challenge? :shrug:

Javascripterror 08-25-2005 09:15 PM
There is no challenge jaydee when you call people liars you have already completed any future dialog. Pity really we all used to be water coolers not businessmen.

jaydee 08-25-2005 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javascripterror
There is no challenge jaydee when you call people liars you have already completed any future dialog. Pity really we all used to be water coolers not businessmen.
I am up in the air right now. You make some unrealistic claims and then refuse to substantiate them with various unrealistic excuses. All you have to do is prove it. Cathar has done so with all he has done, you have not. Do you even comprehend the difference?

Just have to be honest man. All it takes. Also I am not a business man, I have no stake in anyone.

Etacovda 08-25-2005 09:45 PM
"Only delusion I have Etacovda is that these forums are becoming a good grounding place for the likes of you"

• noun a belief or impression that is not in accordance with a generally accepted reality.

You realise that that means that you think that this _isnt_ becoming a good grounding place for the likes of me? perhaps you should learn english before trying to use it in an argument... next time put quotations around delusion so it seems sarcastic; actually, even then it still wouldnt make sense, so perhaps re-think it.

Take a long hard look at yourself JSE, you dodge easy questions... why? Procooling has long been thought of as 'the home of the bastards, cynics and assholes', but thats generally by people such as yourself, that are not conclusive.

Obviously this does mean something to you, for you to come here and argue it. For what? come on JSE, none of your customers read here, you can stop bullshitting.

Cathar 08-25-2005 10:18 PM
Be careful guys. Paranoia abounds here.

Anyone who subscribes to the philosophy that when manufacturer or reseller makes claims that they then should be backed up with adequate proof, JSE then believes that such people are all delusional minions of myself.

I must say that I feel somewhat privileged to be held in such a position of supposed rulership over those who believe that people who disclose performance figures should be forthright about how such was achieved. Shit, I must be at least 1000 years old because this is a fundamental tenet of scientific practise. Better check the ol' noggin for scars that may indicate amnesia has taken place 'cos I certaintly don't remember founding any ancient universities, teaching Isaac Newton, or Archimedes.

Yep. Says a lot doesn't it?

Etacovda 08-25-2005 10:32 PM
ooh look, hes gone quiet and isnt posting
anyone else surprised?






thought not.

Spot 08-25-2005 11:54 PM
I am sure the manufacturer of these rads don't have the figures concerned.

bobkoure 08-27-2005 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javascripterror
So glad you have data BillA. When you want to share give me a yell......... please.
He can't share - he's not exactly a private citizen, works for Swiftech (which he's very open about, BTW - no dark secret or anything). So... the issue is that if he releases data on a competitor's product he opens Swiftech up to at least the possibility of a lawsuit from that competitor (unclear to me whether internet-sharing would become a libel or slander case).
IMHO, Bill's testing is good enough that IMHO there would never be a possibility of the suit succeeding, but it costs money and attention - and even more money and attention if you want to counter-sue for costs (and even then you don't get anything back for the lost attention).
So he has to be coy.
Being usually quite blunt and outspoken, this has gotta be a hard thing...


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