Now why don't respectable sites like Procooling.com or Overclockers.com get high quality (and EXPENSIVE) German waterblocks like this guy? I bet if you wrote a letter to them they'd probably send you one. I'm sure they'd appreciate more business in the US market.

It's a possibility Paul, thanks for looking. :)
Here's another category I found which might be applicable

9988.00.00 Apparatus, utensils, instruments and parts thereof, other than goods of Chapter 70, when to be employed:

(a) directly in teaching or research by
(iii) any non-governmental organization incorporated or established in Canada solely for educational purposes or solely for the purpose of carrying out research designed to benefit the public at large, if carrying out its objectives without pecuniary return to its members or shareholders other than as salaries or fees for duties performed or as reimbursement of expenses incurred

Sure sounds like ProCooling to me. :)


pHaestus - thanks. I'll probably end up paying somewhere in excess of that to get it to you in the first place but it's all in the interests of awareness-raising and removal of the amount of doubt and hypothesis that goes on around and about.
Look forward to your findings.



Slater - High flow kit? Come on... High velocity, maybe. :dome:
10mm ID & under is my domain. You guys with your 1/2" and 3/4" setups are the high flow lot. :p

The kit in question may as well be the CustomPC one, as although there are variations of it, it's nicely balanced as it is.

Contents as follows:-
1x Black Ice Xtreme II radiator - these are a new version that I've hardly seen about which have G1/4 threaded connections for interchangeable fittings
2x Papst 4412F/2GML 120mm fan - these are (typically ) now being phased out by Papst, so instead of supplying these - we'll be supplying 2x Papst 4412F/2GL 120mm fans with the retail kit instead (with the option to upgrade free-of-charge from my own personal stash of F/2GMLs on request while stocks last). As BillA requested our "silent" kit, I'll leave it as GLs for this test and hope that if he can front the requisite two 120mm fan rad, pH could swap & test the fan options more easily between the two.
2x 12v/7v adapter cable (for optional use)
1x AP1500 pump (consisting of an AP900 and the 12-24V variable transformer module) was included just to help edge us further ahead of the competition in the magazine article (the increased noise of the pump at 24Volt is hardly worth the degree or two it affords but many people will find they can select the appropriate voltage setting to trade off performance against acceptable noise level 12v/15v/18v/21v/24v selectable)
- together with this, there's a velcro pad for pump mounting and an ATX jumper block (which is like the mobo socket but with the green bridge wire for 12v pump priming independent of the mobo being powered)
1 x Cape Coolplex 25 external reservoir - basically a perspex cylinder res with a couple of one-screw mounting rings
4metres 10/8mm clear polyurethane (PUR) tubing - I'm tempted to offer a substitution on this of the 10/7mm PUR PE (polyurethane polyether) stuff I'm using in my ClearPC but am still testing it right now
10mm Ni-brass plugin/pushfit fittings throughout
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Interface Material. I guess you'll be using the testing version of this anyway, so I can send it with or without this.
500ml Tec Ice Protect pre-mixed coolant
and king of the show... the NexXxoS XP block [the Silver (Ni-plated) version] (unless you want to cover the shipping instead of me and then I'll send you my own gold plated version :p )
complete with appropriate hex key for installation of same.


At the end of the day - I make my choice at a balance of performance, usability and lesser restriction to internal airflow (which is something a lot of people forget about when selecting their oversize tubing).
Uninhibited radiator airflow is easily as important than coolant flow rate to me (but weighed up against silence to give an efficient all round system which suits most users' needs, whichever their preference).

BillA - Long term reliability is our design brief. Installation convenience is all very well for those who just want to deal with "bolt-on" parts but we're catering more specifically to the slightly more dedicated enthusiast market here, so those that don't mind a bit of jigsaw/dremel work will be more of our target demographic.
With that said, if you can fit the rad, you've done the hardest part. :shrug:


In closing, I'd like to publicly extend my personal thanks, gratitude & appreciation to Taner DeMirci and alphacool.de for backing me in this and other testing ventures, without whom, this could well have been less likely if not impossible to arrange. :)

i want that NexXxoS XP block, looks better than my 1ahv2

You'll probably like the rest of the kit too then. :D piccy <-- clicky

The metal collar plugin fittings supplied don't normally come cheap but I've always used them by way of personal preference and you've gotta admit they are teh sexy (apart from being better suited to use with liquids rather than the gases that poly collar ones are generally recommended for).

i really like the waterblock, its very shinny
but i dont like the radiator, there is no fan grill that fits the BIX2, at least its not made for that. iam using the airplex 240, gonna change it after summer.
The res. wouldnt fit in my case, iam using a lian li pc-7

Wow Pug, what started out as a challenge for "German" vs "US" style kits, and the kit you've laid out there can best be described as being strongly in the spirit of a "US" kit.

The pump you included is stronger than many US-style systems are setup with, and certainly far, far, far stronger than a choked down Eheim 1046.

The radiator, being a dual-fan radiator, is exactly what most US-style proponents call for.

8mm ID push-fit tubing is basically equivalent to the lower end of the US-style 3/8" ID slip-over-barb setups.

In essence, what you've specified there, is a setup that is 90% "US", with the only "European" consolation being the tubing, but even then being push-fit and 8mm ID, it's still what many in the USA would call acceptable.

If anything, I see that "US"-style has already won a moral victory before any testing is done, given what you've assembled there.

When most people in the USA think "German", they're typically thinking:

Eheim 1046
6mm (1/4") ID tubing
Single low-speed fan 12cm radiator
Restrictive reservoir
Waterblock to suit tubing size

Now how does the kit you've assembled resemble anything like that?

If anything, your kit is more in the spirit of "English", which before I pointed out, was mostly in line with the USA perception of performance, with some European influences, and that is exactly what you've assembled.

US vs german = double heater core VS single low-speed fan 12cm radiator
lol

Not even worth spending any effort to formulate a response, especially if that's all the mental effort that you put into reading something.

thats the radiator german ppl use
the one on the right is as thick as the thermal chill 120


http://1acooling.de/produkte/radiato...oren-dicke.jpg

Personally, I think it would be much more exciting (and maybe cheaper) if Pug could send a few different european waterblocks instead of the complete system he put together.

At the moment I'm wondering which block would be best suited with the c-systems pump and a heatercore. Right now it seems the 6002 holds that spot but perhaps one of those european blocks might be able to bump it out.

It's also a highly restrictive continuous tubed radiator. If that's the radiator that "most" German people use, then why is that not part of the test suite?

The Black Ice Xtreme II radiators that Pug included were made primarily for the US high-flow style market. They are a low flow restriction radiator.

Still, fine, even if we kept the radiators the same, the pump that is included does not typify a quiet low-wattage low-head low-flow pump that most people associate with German systems. When over-volted above 12V like Pug is proposing, it is powerful enough in terms of its delivery pressure head to ram more flow rate through an 8mm ID tubing push-fit setup, than the Swiftech MCP600 could probably achieve through a 1/2" barbed setup.

Herein is the rub. Pug's setup consists of a powerful pump that is designed to fight any restrictions in the setup. It is not "elegant" in the way that typifies most German systems, which is a small low-power low-pressure pump not particularly stressed about pushing low flow rates through thin tubing.

Crap, I'd use that pump if I could. I think many US people would be more than happy to use that pump. When over-volted as planned, it'd be more powerful than a Danner Mag 3, or a Laing D4.

Back to the radiator though, it's primarily a very popular US-market radiator.

So basically the setup is one whose pump is strong enough to make most US setups envious, a radiator that is essentially one of the better US-style radiators on the market (in terms of performance), a tubing setup that on the whole is not a great deal more restrictive than various US setups, and one of the highest performing German-derived blocks as perhaps the only "consolation", which I might add is made using pin-fin and impingement concepts that have been pushed hard in the USA for a while now.

It is a USA setup for all intents and purposes. It's a setup that most people in the USA would look at, and see that it's setup in a way in which they can understand as to how it would perform well.

It's a long, long way away from the not-so-humble beginnings of this thread that pleaded a case for, and I quote:

Of the points raised by nightic, the kit assembled by Pug fits well and truly in the US-style he described, with the only exception being the barbs/tubing size, and even then, not a particularly big exception.

I should add:

This "contest" is no longer a measure of the US vs German approach. This is a stacked marketing effort designed to allow for the promotion of a line of products sold by an English water-cooling reseller.

The issue of "German vs US" left the room long ago. This thread has for the last few pages now been totally about competitive marketing and product promotion and positioning.

typical german watercooling is 1046-1048, 6/8mm tube, G1/8 waterblock and res.

i think its best to test the waterblock rather than the whole kit

I do agree on that one. If we remove the marketing posturing that's been going on for the last few pages of the thread, what it really comes down to is whether or not a top-end German block at low flow rates (<0.5gpm) is better than a US block at moderate-high flow rates (1-2gpm). That is really the crux of it. The radiators and pumps for either setup can be chosen to suit the "needs" of the block. A low-flow block doesn't need a powerful pump, big tubing, and an unrestrictive radiator. A high-flow block does, more-or-less.

Still, and it gets murky even here. Many of the newer blocks coming out of USA/Australia are more moderate in their demands for "high" flow rates, with a fair number of them being quite happy in the 0.5-1.5gpm range.

I am expecting to see the performance on both blocks on different flow rate scenarios so that we may have a full picture (C/W VS flow rate curve from 0.25 gpm to 2gpm). By this way, people can choose what they really need according to their specified need and setup.

not all the block you can pump 2gpm

It is ok if not all blocks can be pumped with 2gpm. Just want to see how they can gain on different flow rate.

And here I was thinking we were talking about off the shelf manufacturer designed systems, not hand picked setups... :shrug:

It would have been nice, though I guess Swiftech probably would have won.

swiftech can never win with their radiator

That's not what I get from Alphacool's site. The pump is specced at 3m of head at 24v, unless I'm reading it wrong.

Would that be the pumps on this page that all say that they're 12v pumps for the AP700, AP900 and AP1500?

For the AP1500 12v pump, at 1500lph peak flow and with a peak 3m pressure head makes for a pump that's slightly more powerful than a Danner Mag 3. Over-volt by even a small amount, and it'll leave a 12v Laing D4 far behind.

Does that make my current PC the entry as an Australian system? D4, large single pass core, and Cascade?

Hmmm, from an admittedly somewhat ego-centric point-of-view, I guess a somewhat typical "Aussie" enthusiast setup would be:

Cascade waterblock
'87-'94 Toyota Camry heater-core, being the original "Big Arse" radiator, sold as a product here (not by me) as the JARON IceCool
1/2" ID tubing
Swiftech MCP600 or Laing D4, or to be truly Australian the Davies-Craig EBP 12v pump
2 x Panaflo H1A's on the radiator, typically at 7V

A fair number of people over at OCAU have followed that sort of configuration.

From the time I started reading this thread this is what I got the feeling of what was coming in as the average german type system.

And what I would of liked to of seen used for the typical american high flo system would of been an all dangergen setup including

1. TDX/RBX block 1/2
2. DD D4 12v pump
3. DD double heatercore with shroud and 2 papst fans
4. Tygon 1/2" id tubing
5. dbl 3 1/2" or 5 1/4" res
6. Zerex supercoolant
7. Misc clamps and hardware.

It would come in under $300 and would be quite comparable to most of the enthusiasts setups.

I know that on this site there are a couple issuse with DD and this site and members but for a one stop shop from the same place I think it is a decent setup for a comp such as this.

Cathar - Do you have anything positive to add to this thread instead of your misinformed whinge/rant?

You are wrong on so many counts, it might be funny if you weren't so serious about it.

I'll leave the majority of the egg on your face for now and just let you read back through the whole thread to realise some of your mistakes but I will pull you up on a couple of points.

The challenge itself -
I was fed up of going around minding my own business (literally), trying to help people make an educated and informed choice with their watercooling setup, only to be trashed by words like "don't buy that German stuff, it's crap".
^^^ Now that was an actual quote from a ProForum member on another forum, in the actual thread that prompted nightic to compose this thread in the first place (before he emailed me to inform me that he'd asked for you guys' opinion too.)
I come into the thread to find you and BillA warbling on about how US systems are performance-oriented and all German systems merely adequate.
Well, helllloooo? Welcome to 2004... lift the veil of ignorance and come on in.

In case you weren't aware, the rad in the kit was commissioned by a German firm who recognised that barbs as used by the majority of the US systems I've seen (and permanently attached to the US version of this rad) are both inefficient and dated by way of a PC watercooling standpoint. Rather than using a proprietary system, as others have done, they chose to have it threaded for interchangeable fittings to increase compatibility for those who wish to mix & match or even upgrade their system partially if they can't afford to do it all at once - an approach I personally have a lot more respect for (as an end user and mentor to others) than the alternatives.

I'll agree that most well known German systems have, until recently been based around a continuous tube radiator - but it's usually a 240 or 360 with the smaller pump, while US systems usually tend to comprise of a single 120mm fan rad & shroud with a hefty pump {as with the Danger Den system proposed by Paul (Coolmiester) and BillA's Swiftech offering}.
There's not a lot in it at normal every day real-world use, in fact, the APE 360 in my own ClearPC in conjunction with the 12V AP900 and "typically restrictive reservoir" probably outperforms the BIXII and AP1500 anyway - as would the HTF triple.

I'm glad you like the AP1500 but you don't seem to realise quite what it is when you speak of overvolting it further. The info is around (even in this very thread) if you care to read for it properly.
This kit was aimed to offer the best cross-section of performance & silence in one package - it's adjustable to boot so if, like me, you want to be able to use your overclocked computer in silence six days a week and be able to cope with any fluctuations the weather might throw at you or run a mad overclock for a LAN party - you have it.
I personally run the AP900 (which is the exact equivalent of running the AP1500 at its base 12V setting) and would never advocate people running at 24V unless they have a particularly well soundproofed case and/or don't mind the noise produced. There really isn't a lot in it - you'd be better off tweaking it to a satisfactory noise level (at whatever voltage that is) and then selecting fans to match that acceptable noise threshold.
The pump in its un-overvolted state is very similar in its flow characteristics to the 1048 we all know & love... it's just that with the step up transformer we also give you the wherewithal to "overclock" it out of the box, as you see fit to suit your needs & system requirements.
It's futureproof in this way and fun to mess about with too, I don't understand your problem with that.


All the parts in the kit are as German in origin as Swiftech & Danger Den's offerings are American - it's the German version of the BIX, in contrast to the Swiftech & Danger Den versions. The German blocks are there too, with their small ID fittings... If it would make you happier, I can supply the 7mm ID hose that I personally use instead of my "high-flow" 8mm ID. :rolleyes:
The minimum ID of the fittings is 7mm anyway - If I put these on your block for a comparitive test, you'd moan like f$ck that we were hamstringing it!!

It seems to me that you yourself must have some ulterior motives behind your posts - I don't have time to dignify them with much of a response other than what I've already said and I haven't changed my tune since I came into this thread - read my posts and see (and thanks Chew Toy, I can see that you have done so :)).

I could just send a block... but what's that going to show if people can't see that it's the parts that make a whole.
With this kit, I can show you a balanced system that would outperform a badly designed Cascade XXX rig any day of the week, no matter what either block can do on its own under lab conditions.
Even if you can't open your own eyes to this, there's no need to hold your hands over everyone else's (in the interests of your own "admittedly somewhat ego-centric point-of-view").

Now if you'll excuse me, I have customers to support.
Please keep your points valid and research your arguments further to save wasting both my time & theirs.
Thanks in advance.

Pug.
Owner: WizD

*clap* *clap*

Spoken with the spin of a true sales-person.

Very good. Enjoyed it immensely.

You explained some history, but it still doesn't change that the system that you outlined falls very strongly onto the side of "US"-style.

Spin it how you want. Explain it how you want. Apart from the tubing, it's a true "US"-style system.

I have no ulterior motive here except to point out that I see someone who is eager to sell his products, and is prepared to present a system in the best possible light, which can only be described as "US"-like, in order to achieve that goal.

I have no vested monetary interest in this. You do.

So who has the ulterior motive here, hiding under the umbrella of a "German vs US" bake-off? This is no longer a "German vs US" bake-off. This is a "near-US" vs "US" bake-off.

If German systems have really commonly evolved into the system that you're putting up for comparison, then all that's been done here is to dispel some myths that German systems now pretty much have fallen in line with the US way of doing things, and might I add, "Welcome - we've been waiting for you!"

*off to bed*

Well. If we were to keep you happy, all I'd need to do would be to keep the step up transformer out of it (sorry pHaestus - I think you'd have appreciated that too) and switch the rad for a multipass one. Oh and switch the tubing to 7mm ID too.
We'd probably lose what? About 2-4°C all told? Pfft. Up the fans on the rad back to the GMLs and we'd have that difference straight back.

What you propose won't be a commercial offering that was part of the criteria that I proposed initially as you conveniently seem to be forgetting that I was the one who issued the challenge in the first place! :mad:

You overestimate my vested interest in this. I'm just calling you out for your misinformation.
**** it - I'm not even US-based so I'm unlikely to be the one benefitting from this in any other way than as a moral victory over you for talking trash about products which you freely admit you have had no experience with (or did you conveniently miss this part of the first post -
)

So, seeing as you feel so qualified to post in this thread, would you care to share your experience of German-style setups? If you have none, would you like to foot the bill for sending the kit revised to your chosen criteria????


^^^ At least that's a good reason to keep your eyes closed. :rolleyes:
Sleep well.

Crap - I couldn't sleep. I was lying there thinking why does this irk me so much, and I figured it out.

This whole "German vs US" thing. The pro-German's point at WaterCoolPlanet as if to prove that somehow the "US style" blocks are all under-performing in comparison. Every "US-style" block that's there is a fair way behind the leading German blocks.

The US-style proponents point out that due to the WCP testbed's use of the very weak Eheim 1046, the small-ID tubing, and a very restrictive coiled-tubing radiator, that the flow rates are so low as to be totally out of spec with the intent of the design of the "US-style" blocks.

Now along comes a proposed "German" vs "US" bakeoff. Problem is that now the rest of the "German" system (aside from the block) is something that would now be totally "within spec" for a US-style block, being most everything that a US-style system calls for - being a strong pump (roughly a Mag 3 equivalent) and a large unrestrictive heater-core style radiator.

So I wonder.

Why is it that US-style blocks get tested (and bested) on a German testbed that apparantly epitomises everything that we are always being told is "German" when it comes to a water-cooling testbed, yet when it comes to a square off for the apparantly dichotic philosophies, that the "German" system that gets proposed is one that the US blocks would be quite happy to be run with, and certainly one that would show most of the US blocks in a far better light if it formed the basis of the WCP testbed?

i.e. it's the anomalies between what gets presented as a "German" system when it comes to ranking waterblocks that everyone points at vs what is being sent that is nothing like what gets used to rank waterblocks in Germany.

So which is it? What is a German setup? It certainly does not appear to be anything like what was explained in the opening thread, nor does it appear to be anything like what is upheld as the be-all/end-all of German waterblock test-beds.

There, I think that's what has been bugging me all day. Now maybe I'll get some sleep.

It seems this is what is happening.

Look at Innovatek's first X-flow kit:
http://www.viperlair.com/reviews/cas...vatek/p2.shtml

And now their XX kit:
http://www.bigbruin.com/html/innovatek-xxs.htm

Look at the radiator more spacifically. They still use a weak pump and 8mm ID tubing but one peice at a time is catching up to US system style specs.

I would rather see a complete German manufactured kit as opposed to one thrown together by a currently wannabe company and peices the parts together.

I think you underestimate Swiftech's dual 120 rad, the 676 or whatever...


All said I thought we would see the Asetech kit, Alphacool basic kit, Innovateks kits, DD maze 4 kits, Swiftech's kits...

Kits put together and sold as a whole by manufacturers not pieced together mish mashes, Swiftech's 22600 series would likely trounce the others. I have no numbers to suport this but that is my gut feeling, considering ease of installation, performance and noise level.

Hell if I'm out in left field somone let me know.

These kits have a place, maybe not in my main box but maybe my wifes or kids... Hell I could use a bit of quiet speed for my system at my office. Kits designed to work as a unit have a better chance of increasing adoption which can only help all of us, I'd like to see where they stand.