i dont think it will out perform this one
http://1acooling.de/produkte/set-pow...erunit-top.jpg

:rolleyes: LOL I wasn't refering to external kits or single unit packages... this has become pointless we may as well include phase change, pelts...

Oh well overall it was a nice idea.

i had a swiftech 8500pv kit
its rubbish, maybe its because its old
the base of the block is thick, the radiator is small(8cm), the pump is loud, and its dead after 3-4 months

Resuming, there are 3 systems:
- US systems;
- German systems;
- The new German systems (the one pug is sending);

What i want? the 3 of them tested.

We don't have any problems here with Dangerden; I talk to Dennis and Jeremy fairly regularly and have always said they make well-built and inexpensive products for the mainstream. I had some altercations with DangerDen FANBOYS on other forums but that's nothing new.

Nigel: If thick base blocks are rubbish then I guess there's no need to test german waterblocks at all?

Pug: It seems to me that all we are doing here is arguing the same debate that led me to testing waterblocks with a large pump and flow control instead of with a variety of pumps and radiators. And when I said I'd make a dual radiator system with loud fans to win a competition for the good ole US of A you thought that was pretty unfair. Now that's pretty much what you are doing: "I could use a radiator more typical of the German style but then I'd switch to loud fans". I thought the concept of quiet cooling was stressed in German systems?

How hard is it to choose a complete kit put together by a German mfgr? Or barring that just send a few waterblocks on loan for me to test?

Or (here's probably the best solution) why not send me a German kit as provided by a German mfgr and then send the parts YOU would use instead for your hybrid wizard designs kit? That way we all see the tradeoffs (if any) involved in the German style, the American style, and then how much is to be gained from mixing and matching?

I am fairly confident I could get the missing parts to build either a DTek or a DD kit as well.

You bring up an interesting point, is there a warranty with the kit and how good is it.

i didnt bother if i could get a L20 for 15us
i replaced with l20 and its not as noisy

are we testing the german waterblock or german watercooling kit here?
shall we test the german vga block too?

nigelyuen...Please suppy link to the Wasserkuhlung. Now that says German! :cool:

Or any number blocks at all...

To a lesser degree that's perhaps my other gripe with all this. I was honestly interested in seeing just how a "traditional" German kit would've compared. I mean it gets thrown about often enough in US forums by German proponents that US kits suck, and that "small, quiet and elegant" is the "German way" and is every bit as good.

Instead what I see is what I would call a super-aggressive custom-assembled kit made from specially commissioned components offered by a reseller of various water cooling components.

If those are the rules of the game, then would it not be more appropriate for someone line Bruce from Cooltechnica to put together a "best of USA" kit, or perhaps a kit from a custom reseller like JPI?

Totally agreed.

Well, let's say we were to ask Bruce to selectively build the best U.S.A. watercooling system. One ongoing trend that I have seen between German and USA setups is that US setups involve much more "home" modification than German setups. We are satisfied with "strictly made for watercooling" pumps such as the MCP600 and the soon to be Dtek Csystem pumps but we always are anxious of how a non-made for watercooling pump such as an Iwaki, Blueline, or Gen-X pump would affect performance. Moreover, most WC enthusiasts would opt for a Fedco2-342 rather than a BIX or Thermochill.

That said, choosing items not made for watercooling would be an unfair comparison. I'd say an MCP600 and a Thermochill would suffice.

For the German side of things, I agree that using a BIX caters towards more of a U.S. specified system because of its similarities to a standard "from the car" radiator (even similar to the "Big Arse" style radiators of Australia). I suggest using an HTf2 radiator rather than an Airplex because it performs a lot better and I think utilizes the restrictive tubed style radiator that we have all been accustomed to seeing with a German system.

As for tubing, when I think American I automatically think 1/2." That is just me. The MCW6000 was a wonderful block, but many people waited for the 1/2" version because their systems were already 1/2" and they assumed "bigger is better." I do not know exactly if it performs better, but the assumption is already there: typical U.S. systems prefer 1/2" and nothing less. All the parts that PUG chose are catered towards 3/8" and utlize a quiet low flow pump like the AP. I honestly don't understand how it can even be considered American (that is, after Pug has decided to take out the transformer andexchange the BIX for an Airplex) because it has little to do with the "bigger is better" stereotype.
1. You have small tubing.
2. The pump is nowhere near the specs of a Mag 3 or MCP600 (again, this is
without the transformer)
3. The Coolplex reservoir follows the same restriction as a Tank-O-Matic (which
Americans have come to hate because of its restriction, although most
decide to modify it)
4. The restrictive radiator.

That said, I slightly modiied my setup, which can be seen here
http://www.insanetek.com/index.php?page=germanwb
with some German blocks. I used the same radiator and reservoir (both which can be considered American) but I switched to a 1048 and three German blocks as well as 3/8 inch tubing. Before this I had an MCP600 and a TDX and Fusion HL. The graphics card temps remained unchanged with the newer setup, but the CPU temps went up 2 degrees C on Load, but the change in noise was MUCH lower than before with the elimination of the MCP600.

I still have all my stuff, and I'm saving up for an HTF2 radiator and a Coolplex reservoir from http://snt-systems.com/catalog/index.php.

I hope to do a comparison between the 1/2 setup and the 3/8 setup, but I know that it won't be near as good as Phaestus's reviews.

I don't think this has been mentioned but this could easily be a three way competition

Danger Den type 1/2
Swiftech type 3/8
Euro type 1/4

I agree. I would like to see how a traditional top end german style (10mm od tube low to med flow pump) would compare to the others.
If the performance is relativly close (2~4°c) to the others I would like to setup a system or two that way. But without an accurate test it is too much money to spend with just guess work. The only 2 changes I would make is probably use the C-Systems pump and a BIX for the rad, just for ease of construction in the systems I was thinking of.

we should test each part at a time like
themal chill 120.2 vs airplex 240
alphacool xp vs cascade

something like that

is that what you asking for?
www.1acooling.de

Doesn't seem very fair to restrict one type of system to a single manufacturer set kit while allowing the other type to pick and choose between different manufacturers. Also, BIX2 radiators aren't one type or the other really - they're made by a company in the Phillipines. If we're going to throw the idea of "premade kit" out of the window, why not MCW6002, Overvolted D4, Dtek Pro-120 Rad & Shroud, 1/2" tubing, or something of the like?

I'm interested to see a competition between a US manufacturer's set kit and a German manufacturer's set kit (Swiftech v. Alphacool or the like) or a competition between the "best of German products" and the "best of US products" but lets not mix those two concepts.

maybe those interested could help pHaestus with the funding of these tests
think PayPal preferred
phaestus@procooling.com
hoping you (pH) received my July £10

I'll pitch in if we can try for all the big names; DD, Swifty, Innovatek, Asetek...

Ah.
I have minimal interest in this "shooting match"
However am interested in the development of test-beds
It is this to which I donate, but each to his own.

Les:
Your donations have been most appreciated. I started setting up some of the equipment today in fact (Fluke RTDs) and as soon as one more package arrives I can begin to experience the joys of GPIB configuration and labview.

if a waterblock with a thick base, doesnt it mean, its bad performance?
doesnt the water transfer the heat faster with the pump on, than copper?

thats how thin the base is for my block
http://www.hartware.net/media/reviews/370/coolduke.jpg

There is something wrong with anyone who can even jokingly use the word joy in the same sentence with any prepackaged automation HMI.

I'm sure that Les and BillA are shaking their heads about now.

Aside from that, water-cooling basically comes down to how well the block and the radiator are working, and to some degree, how much heat the pump puts into the loop.

Given water flow-rates above about 2LPM (0.5GPM), the thermal capacity of water ceases to be an issue of any real concern in the performance of a waterblock.

What I would have liked to have seen was whether or not a top-end "German" waterblock at 0.25GPM can indeed outperform, or at the very least equally match, a top-end "US" waterblock that's running at 1.5GPM.

If it can, then that's pretty much a conclusive decider in saying that US setups are inefficient and all the other blather that goes along with that side of the debate.

If that's provable, then that pretty much means that we can all switch to 6mm ID tubing, throw away our powerful pump, and stick an all-brass C-systems pump with push-fittings (or an Eheim 1046 for the Germans), and forget about the current line of development being followed in USA/Australia.

That, to me, would be more of a revolutionary ground-breaking shake-up and wake-up call to all the USA and Aussie block makers.

I want someone to prove to me that the USA/Aussie developmental approach has gotten it all wrong.

The closest thing I've yet seen is the Hydrocool Hydro-Stream HS-5 block (designed by a German engineer living here in Australia - but truly a "German" style block). For JoeC/Overclockers, at 0.3GPM the HS5 has a C/W of 0.139. For the Asetek Antarctica (White Water clone), it has a C/W of 0.118 at 1.5GPM. That's still a pretty handy lead for the "USA". Heck, extrapolating a bit of math with respect to pressure drop and holding pressure drop constant across both blocks, and the copper Asetek Antarctica holds a 0.015C/W lead over the Silver HS5.

I want a German block to show me the error of my ways. I want to not use a strong pump to achieve the best possible performance.

The Cascade is a 17-month-old about-to-be-totally-obsoleted design. How long has the Alphacool XP been out for?

[Edit: to fix incorrect units]

i know watercooling is not just a waterblock
but i just want to know having a thick base, does it affect the performance
with the same design, waterblock with thick base and waterblock with thin base, which is better, thanks

The answer is "it depends", and it depends on the design, and it depends on the targetted pumping pressure that the design is being optimised for.

BTW nigelyuen, do you really have to quote my entire post to make a 3-line comment not particularly related to the bulk of my post?

Yes, I remember, that was me on Bit-tech.net.
Yes, I said "don't buy that German stuff" (it's just my personal opinion).
But I didn't say "it's crap"...:rolleyes:

As lots of other people, I think of german watercooling as a silent, good looking but not so well performing solution...

And I'd liked to be proven wrong.

CD :)

That would be an interesting design brief. To build a block that is inferior with a stronger pump.
My numbers say it is physically impossible. Maybe with forced cavitation or the like.

The only possible scenario is equal performance at all reasonable flowrates, even then, equal is a matter of measurement resolution.

flow-boiling?
have toyed with for several years
however with water and temps 20-40c do not think can occur

Okay, somewhat poorly worded I admit.

For a practical example of what I refer to look at the Swifetch MCW5000-A performance curve.

Near dead-flat above 1GPM. Sure it gets very slightly better, but not enough to ever warrant anyone's bother to chase for it, and certainly not with the extra pump heat that would be required to achieve it.

So basically a performance curve like that, where the knee is at 0.25-0.5gpm, is achievable with an Eheim 1046 and 6mm ID tubing, and leads against all "US" blocks at least up until 2.0gpm is being fed to the "US" blocks.

Now that would make me sit up and take notice (and throw the towel in).

Think you will find the position of the knee changes with the scale of the x-axis.