do we need a "low end" cooling section ?
 

procooling typically is oriented to the maximum performance crowd
and most here have a fair idea of how to assemble such systems (even when wrong, lol)

the Europeans take issue with us because such systems are "not necessary" or "too big" or "too noisy"
and while these characterizations are value judgments based on the preferences of that individual,
certainly it is clear that systems designed primarily for low noise or small size or (even) low cost are going to be different

the increasing interest in small pumps is an example
that a small pump is not 'high performance' is clear, but they score quite high for space, and often for noise as well

given a small pump, what is the benefit of big tubing ?
none

so the productive discussion would be along the lines of how much performance for how little a system (substitute low noise for little for for the other aspect)

this is what the Europeans are doing, though the uninformed among them attempt to support their choices with allegations of 'fact' to deny that some performance has been lost

we will see more and more 'low end' systems as they are more cost effective

I dont see the point though. To me it still falls within the cooling section here. I'm also interested in this situation also. I still see some room for improvement for the "low end" crowd though I'm sure it will level off lower than the "bigger is better" idea. If one could tweak every bit of performance from the "low end", I think they would easily own the market.

1. Easy to use/setup
2. Performs just as good
3. Cost/performance ratio

I know the low end will never get close to the performance crowd but that is the challenge/fun for me to see if I really make the low end block perform like a high end block. Kind of like the old airplane days where different countries would compete in annual gathering to see who could make the lighter, faster plane that could fly the farthest. That's how I look at it. Maybe someone will surpise us with a cheap low end system?

Maybe it is a good idea for a low end cooling section.

Nanotechnology is the future.

I have to agree with SysCrusher.

For me it's easy.. I spent to much $ on gear, and I can compare with 6.5mm, 8mm, 10mm and 13mm systems.... (I have an EXOS who I use for my HDD's and GPU)
I placed this exos also on my WW, and my temp went up by 5 degrees.
that's little difference... if you look at the gear I have to cool for those 5 degrees..
(1x double heatercore, 1x single heatercore, 1x Blackice extreme,4x 12cm PAPST at 7v, MCP600)
(and yes, with a room temp below 27 degrees, I don't need the fans to run at all, it's enough volume to run passive)

It is that I spent to much money to take it all out...
I also have an innovatec set, a Hydrocool and a asetec waterchill.....
temps are close (as long as I use my WW).. only the noise level is different.

I can not call my systems 'low end' systems. but they are available "out of the box"
the question is.. is "out of the box" a 'low end' system.

Maybe it's better to make a section of high end systems.
I don't mind spending 200$ on a pump, but most of the readers of this forum buy their whole water-cool system for that.

But most of all important: Playing with water is fun!

I don't think we need a dedicated low end section. however it is a very interesting idea.

I agree with syscrusher, a super tweaked WC'ing system on the low end that is better then the best aircooling available now and come pretty close to higher end cooling.

lets not consider "low end" to be definitive, a label
I used the phrase consciously to indicate 'not high performance' as the preeminent design criterion

as distinct groups I would name:
low noise
low space
low cost

melding the above with performance yields the variety we see today
I think each is interesting in its own right

but then I'm obsessed too

I would love a good low noise discussion. As that is my main reason to go to water.

also how small we can make a water cooling system would be very interesting.


is that a bad thing?

Wasn´t this question to be answered in full, after a big round-up/testing and comparison was made between WC kits from Europe vs. U.S?
What happened?
Already we embarked on a thread with 15 pages, and no conclusions.
Do we need more?

Once more from the "French" (Roscal)- link

Quoting from the article: "Les essais se font Ã* 2 puissances dissipées différentes qui valent respectivement ~75 W (3.4 GHz @ 1.39 V) et ~115 W (3.4 Ghz@1.81 V)

http://www.cooling-masters.com/image...blocs_idle.png

http://www.cooling-masters.com/image...paro_blocs.png

Same here.. silence and fun!

I can agree with the groups:
low noise
low space
low cost

like how can we make a MCP600 "low noise" :D

I was thinking more quiet components to start with but modding for silence would be pretty good too.

Jag
my recollection of that other thread was an argument over supremacy

I was thinking along the lines of 'how does one do low noise (or size or cost) better ?
- accepting that each is a 'legitimate' system optimization goal

After thinking about it, you got my vote for a low end section. Different set of goals.

hey
how about 'low failure' (high reliability) also ?
and what about 'low maintenance' (with zero the goal) ?

I'm all for it as well, all of your catagories have a use to someone. Trying it out is the only way to see if there i adequate interest.

A well-organized open sticky for (each of?) the mentioned areas of interest could be useful.

when one defines the required thermal performance as that speced by the chip mfgr,
what results from setting each of these criteria as 'the most important' is revealing

Sounds great. I'm looking for Low Noise + High Perfomance + Low Maintance. Specifics on how to acheive the noice and maintance would be appreciated. And saving as much of my $ as possible is always on the list regardless of whether it is cooling related or not.

Low noise is the only one of interest, to a minority crowd.

prb123
did you read the post preceeding yours ?
did you understand its meaning ?
as in zero OC ?
if no OC, performance is meaningless - it will do what it was binned for by the mfgr

no tutorial here, just people posting

BillA,

As it proved futile to achieve a "supremacy" verdict or "high performance" to either parts, it was proposed such testing to be made.

How would you define "low end"?
To me it seems an artificial distinction in a not so mature "market".
What set of parameters (previously agreed upon) would you use to rate them?

My superficial view of the matter as far as WC Europeans are concerned, they develop their blocks and tune their systems having as a starting point a set of tubing 6/8mm or 8/10mm, and a specified (desired) flow.
But these systems aren´t low cost at all.

For example some manufacturers using microstructures spent more than a year in R&D for a single block.Is it at this point economically viable?

no Jag,
no 'winners' and no contest, not economic (unless a mfgr wants some ideas ?)
simply discussion about the why, its importance, and (perhaps) the how (I am constrained in terms of disclosure)
see post #5

If all someone is trying to do with their WC system is meet the manufacturer's required thermal performance, it is an incredibly inefficient way to spend money. Ignoring the 'watercooling for looks' group (ableit it is a large one) - you still need to tie performance to the categories of low noise, limited space, and reliability, otherwise watercooling isn't very relevant to them (could be argued for low noise). For the low end performance is the dependent variable I guess.

this is not the entire universe
what % of computer enthusiasts OC ?
and those others ?

this is what the Europeans are doing right now
low noise
and
high fashion

and the G5 system ?
try HIGH reliability
and
zero maintenance

a pinhole camera is not useful here

so is this your definition of "low end?"

may be of interest to OEMs and, oh, i dunno, swiftech....

but to enthusiasts such as us....

aka, if all we wanted was low noise, aesthetics, and low maintenence, we'd all just be buying dells

edit: are dells really not quiet enough or terrible to look at or too high maintenance?

You kind of need to define low noise. For someone who's used to some tornados or deltas just about any other fan is quiet. On the other hand people who are used to a Zalman 7000 most fans at 12v are rather loud.

So is low noise <30dba? <25dba? <20dba? etc...

i consider my computer too loud and the loudest thing is a suspended WD drive.

I don't know about everyone else but i look for silence, preformance, cost and how long i can use the current cooling setup. I could probably keep my pump, heater core and maybe evenmy water block for a rather long time.

This sound like a job for a Poll.

To me "low end" equates to practical.

A G4 and an Iwakai would be sick. But its not economically feasible, being in University. Books, beer, and tuition tax your meanial student paycheck.

So that means sacrifices have to be made.

First to go is: Preformance.
Buying the greatest is expensive, so save some cash and lower your cooling capacity.

Second is ease of use: Take some extra time, and effort and and make it cheaper. Ditch the kit with the fancy instrutions and high price tag, and slap together i DIY job.

Third is noise: Why bother with H2O if high noise is acceptable... you can just get high end air for cheaper. But you can acept a pump that makes abit of noise, or some fans that are ultra quite, for the sake of saving a few bucks, but no drastic cost reductions.

Reliability needs to be a priority.
Saving money is good, but if you buy a shoddy peice of crap, that wastes your system, and you cant do your school work, your borked.

Those are my thoughts, on why, someday (soon?) I will go the low end route.

Right, but discussions about performance, ease of use and reliability usually sort themselves out: the noise topic is something that we rarely tackle, as a primary subject.

I think we ought to simply call the Forum "Silent Cooling" (Run silent, run deep) and see how it pans out.

Otherwise we'd be looking at separating everything, starting with OC vs non-OC, then breaking it down into the same categories, and that's just not practical.

Wouldn't low end stuff be like giving up on being Big Players making Big Dollars?

Now that I'm set up with my budget stuff and have everything worked out, I have every intention of moving up and getting a Japanese Iwaki and getting more advanced, maybe a dual loop TEC setup.

I've always seen ease of use/looks as more of an economic stretch than performance and silence.

size, ease of use, and looks are typically what drive cost way up for watercooling systems.

performance and silence can be had with little extra cost. But boy do you sacrifice size, ease of use, and looks

for example, look at volenti's evap cooler

or a well-thought-out radbox, or swiftech's latest block (everyone complains that it's ugly)

...that is where the watercooling community is really split, where size, ease of use, and looks are of importance....to some they mean nothing, to some they mean everyting

I don't think we need a whole silent forum, but the people who use water cooling for silence is not insignificant.