What is your ultimate solution to performance & noise?
 

Just like the title says, I want to know what your own ultimate solution to the high performance and ultra low noise cooling system is. A laundry list of items if you like or simply some important things to consider. Even ideas on low noise projects you have planned.

I especially would like to hear about the items like what Cather recently brought up, using a 1 inch rad with low power low noise fans. Whatever you can think of. I used to think that I could just get the greatest of everything and put papst fans on it and I would have great performance with low noise but it would seem this thinking is wrong.

Is there anything special with regard to cooling principles. Like is low flow better for low noise. How does going for low noise affect the science in water cooling? Since the Euros seem to be especially interested in quiet does that mean that they have discovered/determined that use of 3/8" or 1/4" ID hose is better when going for low noise? Whatever! Teach/guide/advise me please.

Thanks,
Psycho

My "ultimate" low-noise performance kit
 

First, just to re-iterate my "ideal" radiator specs. I'll call it the WAFO radiator - for "Weak Ass Fan Optimised" radiator. Single-pass, single-row heater-core style radiator. 16mm thick core area. 12 fins-per-inch. 16x16cm core facial area. Shrouded to a 12cm fan (Papst 4412FGL). Shroud is 7.5cm deep from core surface to fan intake.

Fittings/tubing:
1/2" OD fittings
7/16" ID tubing with 3/32" wall thickness

Radiator/fannage:
2 x WAFO radiators
Single Papst 4412FGL fan on each WAFO rad
Rheobus for the fans

Pumpage:
2 x Eheim 1048's in series as the best balance of noise and power and heat. If there's a single DC pump that offers the same sort of PQ curve (an MCP600 pretty much does) but is as quiet as the Eheim 1048's (the MCP600 isn't at all), then use that. i.e. "ultimate" would be the MCP600, but silent. Perhaps the March 893-09 if only I could stop this damn motor's faint tingling sound.

Block(s):
silver Storm/G5 CPU block
"Hydra" GPU block

Am happy to explain my choices in more detail - but am too tired to do so right now.

wow, yeah that was a late (or early?) posting. I would love to hear more about it. I was getting all excited writing down my xmas list haha, but then i realized I don't have room for all that stuff!

How does a single Eheim 1250 compare to two Eheim 1048 in series in generating noise ? Or is the Eheim 1048 simply unbeatable noise wise.

Mostly, the trick is to have the largest radiator possible as it requires less fannage to achieve the same cooling performance. I use the bonneville heatercore with 2 evercool aluminum fans @7v. I have a whitewater block which works great for the money I paid for it. The mag 3 is overall very quiet, but because of the vibration from my crappy aluminum case it seems somewhat louder than it is. When I pick it up and hold it in my hand, it is almost totally silent.

If the 1046 is anything like the 1048, then the 1048 is pretty much silent. I didnt even know the 1046 was on until i picked it up, when i was running a loop with one. I know the 1250 has a definite hum.

Basically as Cathar said - large, low fin density rad is the way to go.

Undervolt a blower, that's my solution. Massive airflow, with very low noise. A bit more work, but ought to well be worth the effort. The bonus is that the frequency of the noise is lower, making it even more tolerable, but everything is subjective... :rolleyes:

Any good suggestions for blowers (manufacturers/models) that would be appropriate for a radiator that would normally accomodate 2x120mm fans?

Thanks!
-Barry

Cathar,
For pumps... what about Iwaki? I thought that these pumps were the "nes plus ultra" of silent pumps, am I incorrect?

Thanks,
Barry

Hi Barry!

Some fellow recently posted that he used a dual blower from a Mercedez Benz (he didn't specify the model).

Here's mine, from a Ford Mustang (still installing the darn thing):

For fans, I'd like to use heavily undervolted Delta TFB series fans, only if the noise was acceptable (~60 dBa @ 12V!). Would probably need a kick start circuit though. I haven't gotten my hands one one yet, so I can't say whether this is really viable for a low noise solution.

My ideal quiet system:

- Swiftech MC6002 block (it does well with low flow)
- A low-impedance GPU blocks like the Dangerden GPU block (others out there also seem adequate)
- A fanless PSU like the 350W model by Thermaltake
- Hard drives using fluid dynamic bearings
- 1/2" tubing
- 12" by 12" rad of the design that Cathar is proposing
- 12" SLOOOOOW fan such as is used by the room box fans on a variable output switching power supply (to avoid the noise caused by PWM)
- pump would probably be one or two Eheim 1048's, as suggested by Cathar (I've not gone quiet before, preferring MCP650/D4 or Mag3 pumps)

For performance, I'd switch to a MCP650/D4 and use one of Cathar's new spiffy waterblocks (if I could actually acquire one!).


The only parts that aren't easily available are the huge DC fan, and the thin/wide radiator. It would definitely need ducting though.

People keep recommending the papst and panaflo 120mm fans but I have had no luck with them. Both my 120mm papst fans and the 3 Panaflo L1A's are not what I would call quiet when undervolted. They vibrate and make a sort of motor boat sound. Even my Sunon's sound better. I have some Panaflo 92's and 80's that are nice and quiet but I have yet to find a decently quiet 120mm x 38mm fan. What are people's hit rates for getting good vs bad 120mm fans amongst the papst and panaflo crowd?

Why 12 FPI and not 30 FP! ?

http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/CatRad8.jpg
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/CatRad9.jpg

weak fan????

Don't mind if I do, I'll take one of each :D ;) ;)

Seriously though I have a list of cores with links to pics that I want to pick your brain about, but I have to get home first so that will be a couple more hours.

Look at the thermal limitations.
Presented in above graphs

They may not be correct , but anyone got better?

look at the weakest fan

it is apparent less fins = better cooling, unless fan is super strong

No
Look again
These are only theoretical graphs - but

http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/CatRad8.jpg
http://www.jr001b4751.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/CatRad9.jpg

I'll have to look into blowers for my transmission cooler that should be arriving soon.

Because I believe that the air-flow pressure drop with 30fpi is quite a deal higher than you've calculated...have a 24fpi rad here and it does choke air-flow quite subtantially. Am achieving better air-flow/performance with weak fans on the 14fpi rad than with the 2 x 24fpi rads. Other critical dimensions are within 10% of eath other.

It seems like Les's model actually slightly overestimates resistance if you look at Bill's data compared to the model.

After lots and lots of searching, and seeing that prices for what I wanted ran pretty high, I had decided that I would go for the Black Ice Pro 3 ($105) and call it a day. But I did not realize that the BIP3 was a 24FPI. Assuming both rads are 1" thick max, how much of a temp diff is there from 24 to 14? Also how much cooling area do I need assuming a full loop like you described above as well as a submerged pump and a hardcore oc? Below are the heatercores I have been considering but again they don't look WAFO, but I figure if maybe one is 18 or 16 FPI it would be better then 24, but in the end I may be stuck with a best of 24FPI.

http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-763.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-681.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94771.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94496.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94495.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94483.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/94764.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-735.htm
http://www.a-1injectors.com/heatercore/buynow/2-726.htm

I am liking the last one (2-726) best as it is single pass but it is pricey. Could I get away with one or would I need two and assuming it too was 24FPI would I still be better off with a BIP3?

Hard to say - quite a number of subtle differences between different cores. I'm just going by what I've experienced. I also believe that the water-air heat transfer efficiency at 12FPI is a little better than calculated by Kryotherm at low air-flow rates, again based upon practical use. I suspect that this may be due to the fine cut-rippling that heater-core fins have.

My thoughts are more empirically based, and I just have a very confident feeling that 12FPI with weak low volume fans works out substantially better than calculated, and that when coupled with the air-flow resistance it just makes more sense for very low-flow/pressure fans.

Les' sim makes the 29mm cores look good. Cathar or Bill, would you care to comment from practical experience?

Are not most of these thin cores aluminum? That has problems of it's own. BIP of course has all copper, but I"m refering to the heater cores. This seems less desirable.

And won't the BIP have a much higher head loss rate for the water side? It would seem to trade better air flow for lower water flow rates.

Would not a exterior rad box to contain a core like the large 2-192 core, which is still copper/brass and with a finned area of 10.75 X 10.25 X 2 also serve for low noise very well? I'll grant that it's not a single pass design, but with 11 tubes flowing each way should not be very restrictive.

Pretty clear I've missed some good debates prior to this on the advantages of thin cores. I did some searching but didn't find much. Links?

Anyone have a list of large yet thin cores of copper/brass?

What am I missing? With the papst fans, for the 29mm 14fpi 0.1mm fins, I see a C/W of .03. While with the same fans and the 32mm 24fpi 0.25 mm fins, a C/w of .045.

Granted this difference disappears as a stronger fan is used, or a more free-flowing group of heatercores

but my point was still valid unless I am so hardheaded I am still reading the grapgs wrong

You are comparing more than fin density greenman. You also picked a 32mm thick core vs a 29 mm thick one. Compare the 30FPI 12.5mm thick core to the 14FPI and 12.5mm thick.

dP vs. air flow suggests:
30FPI: ~1.7 m^3/min
14 FPI: 2 m^3/min

C/W vs air flow

14 FPI@ 2m3/min: 0.06
30 FPI@ ~1.7 m3/min: ~0.042

This makes sense to me. But I'm purely taking what we've learned about the relationship between surface area, restriction, final flow rates, and performance in wbs and apply it to heat transfer at the air/rad interface; no real theory or data to back it up as of now.

I see Q=2.3m3/min => C/W=0.045

I see Q=1m3/min => C/W=0.055

Same trend... different figures

Agree that the thicker cores+higher fin density seem to have a lower C/W - up to a point

Les, any chance of you sharing your raw data ? (for playing purposes only:D )