100,000 hour pump!
 

Today, was the first sampling of our 2500 hour test using our newly developed sapphire on sapphire bearing system (patent pending), for liquid cooling pumps.

Running at 150% of typical load, todays results show a bearing life in the 100,000 hour range.

Testing program will continue, as wear at this point is very difficult to measure, and we need more time and sampling for final predictions.

If this technology is proven, we expect a major increase in pump warranty periods.

Dave B
C-Systems

Not do be an ass, but wasnt the first original C-Systems pump MOTOR rated for 50,000 MTBF? Even still there were plenty of problems with that pump. Interested to see full results of this new one though.

Yes, the first motor was. This is a rating of the whole pump. How has the experience with the original MAG been?

So far, it seems that users have had a very positive experience with the new mag, though I should note that I am yet to get one for myself. Having a 100,000hr rating would be great, even if it is overkill.

How is it possible to "overkill" on pump life expectancy?

I think that C-Systems have improved leaps and bounds, and have shown a positive effort to listen to users and improve their pumps. This can only be a good thing for all.

While a 100000hr MTBF does not necessarily equate to a 100000hr life-span, it certainly spells volumes for the increased quality of manufacture.

thanks for your efforts dave. I think that the mag is a definite improvement over a great pump that had tremendous potential.
I have not a single complaint about my mags.

again thanks

i'm happy to hear this. reassures me that i've made a good investment. will there be a possible warranty extension then?

What does it mean then? :confused:

The only reason that I say that 100K hours is overkill is beacuse of the fact that I doubt I'd still be using the same pump/system :D .

Is 100,000 hours overkill?

Well first I must say, I don't believe many people on this board know the current and future applications for the MAG style pump.

Wish I could say more, only be assure we have a customer that requires an 80,000 hour rating overall.

The real advantage of this bearing system comes in fluid that can be used, and the resistance to bio issues.

As an engineer, this finding is very promissing :)

I think it's great news Dave. I personally do not scoff at tech advancements, even if they do not directly impact me. :rolleyes:

I should also state, this bearing system produces less noise at 6000 rpm, then current system at 2400 rpm.

Not that there is much noise to begin with, but still an interesting feature?

So are you going to offer pumps with revised electronics for higher pressure/flow (higher rpm)?

Would be interested in seeing a 3500rpm pump of the same design if the impeller is the same as the MAG and 2400rpm was the old rpm.

Beyond "interesting". :)

MAG impeller design seems to me like "state-of-art" on mechanical design: light weight, strong magnetic force, high performance and balance accuracy.

With that new saphire-saphire shaft-bearing i think we will get more flow X pressure at same noise and vibration.

congrats, Dave.

"So are you going to offer pumps with revised electronics for higher pressure/flow (higher rpm)?"

OEM only so far Stew, however we have a new impeller / magnetic / chamber combo that Dan thinks will be safe against "pump hackers", as he calls them.

The idea is that increasing port or chamber size will a decrease in flow / pressure with this configuration. He has asked me to test it, and I am still awaiting machine time.

As I am sure you know, higher pressure will be at a costs of lower zero head flow.

If I read correct, your only looking for 1 GPM on your new blocks?

I just saw the 6000rpm thing, and wondered if that meant that there was going to be a higher specced model being released.

My interests in pumps extends to a "theoretical" one-size-fits-all scenarios "perfect" pump, which has the following characteristics:

6-7mH2O peak pressure head
13-14LPM peak flow rate
20W operational power draw under moderate pressure resistance
compact (fits within 10x10x10cm bounding box)
quiet (~25dBA or ~Papst4412FGL noise level at most)
12VDC power input.

Right now I'm using an Iwaki RD-30 @ 17v to approximate that.

This is not specific to my blocks. This was a set of specifications that was arrived at by carefully considering the lowest achievable temperatures across a broad range of waterblocks (highly restrictive to low restriction, and including additional GPU blocks) and radiators by factoring in the pumping power vs pumping heat dump into the liquid vs "typical" CPU heat load.

i.e. just an intense desire to see such a waterblock agnostic pump be made.

"fits within 10x10x10cm bounding box"

There no problem to meet your flow and head requirements, given this amount of space. A larger pump based off MAG design would exceed these numbers.


Send us a check for $XXXXX and we will tool one for you :)

**just banged on the calculator, can do this with a pump 2.7"x2.7"x1.75" at 16W

get onto it dave, times a wasting ;)

Yes, yes. Do get on it Dave. :)

Well, get on it if it has the 100,000 hours...

"can do this with a pump 2.7"x2.7"x1.75" at 16W"

show me pls :)

Ok, Dave goes to work monday.....

Dave: Kevin can I spend 60-100K on tooling, so that the guys will be happy on pro forum?

Kevin: Dave go home and don't come to work drunk ever again!

:D

Sorry guys, you get OEM left overs. Maybe an OEM will come along and ask for this, or I can convice AVT to make it.

Dave/Cathar/Anyone of influence... What you must do now is clear. Get busy on convincing Swiftech they need such a pump! ;)

Well, it's a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario at this level.

The water-cooling market isn't really large enough for a single water-cooling manufacturer to justify the investment, but the global enthusiast water-cooling market is plenty large enough (>50K units easily) to justify getting such a pump manufactured.

So therein lies the rub. A single manufacturer has trouble justifying getting the pump made on the basis of their own level of market share. A pump manufacturer can easily justify it on the basis of the global market size, but that pump manufacturer needs to understand and believe the size of the market that they'd be both selling into, and also creating for themselves by providing the pump. It's also somewhat of an "If you build it, they will certainly come" scenario. If such a pump were made, then additional market option avenues would likely also open up for it, just because it exists.

The european waterblock manufacturers are screaming out for a small, quiet and high pressure pump as suits their philosophy, just as the USA makers also desire something that's powerful and of sufficient flow rate capacity and efficiency. Such a pump model as described bridges all worlds, but sadly it's left in the hands of pump manufacturers who either really don't care a great deal about computer water-cooling market-place to realise that, or don't fully understand the water-cooling market-place, even though the market-place size and demands easily justifies it.

I mean, we're talking about making a pump that pretty much is what the single answer would be almost world-wide when people ask "What pump do I choose for my system?"

as noted in another thred wudnt useing bouth sides of the moter makeing a dual head pump for ppl useing dual loops its just an idea but whats the theoretical out put of shutch a creashon ?

tnx 4 time

^ This we can do, as long as tooling is under 10K, I have little problems getting funds. Can do some kind of dual motor in single block design, using the new drive cases.

Cather, in many ways your correct. The exception is what an OEM requires for a liquid cooling pump. AVT as I am aware of, has never had a request for a more powerfull pump. In most cases the MAG is overkill, and we have many request for a smaller pump, 1-3 LPM.

OEM's have no interest in spending considerable extra money (percentage wise) just to get another 1-2DegC.

We are also working with several OEM's that have new high performance systems that operate at lower flows then being suggested on this board.

Our retail market is about 1/50 to 1/100 of our industrial / OEM market. So you can understand where both companies spend there tooling dollars.

Personally as I have expressed before, I think high flow / pressure is not the way to go. Heat exchangers size, design and placement is far more important.

I am going to start testing your latest block, have one on order.
Will start with what I can do with standard drive, then go from there.

I have some idea's for offset coils, that will not require a new circuit board (pump will be longer, instead of wider) I want to pass by Dan and Kevin :)

Oh, for sure, bigger/better radiator (heat exchanger) design will always be an easier "win" in terms of temps.

The pump as specified isn't really high flow, more of a well balanced flow/pressure regime that spans the multitude of block designs on the market. We're not after insanely high-flow/pressure, we're after a balanced pump of sufficient pressure/flow that fits the PC water-cooling model about as well as it can possibly fit. We don't want a stronger pump than what's specified, that's stepping backwards due to pump heat dump.

OEM's will ask for a pump that suits their specific needs/wants, but OEM's as you say don't want to eke out the last possible 0.1C of water-cooling performance, and it is here where their philosophy differs from that of the people who frequent this forum.

We wish to explore every last facet of the watercooling technology, and we wish to get that last 0.1C if it's available.

Have already been pushing on getting better radiators/heat exchangers going, and believe me, there are some really good benefits in the works as far as PC water-coolers are concerned - radiators that are specifically tuned for maximum performance when coupled with 20-90cfm fans and in a compact form factor.

This is all we're doing. Examining, pushing and exploring every single last facet, and providing a list of specifications in the hope that a manufacturer one day will read and understand why the need exists, takes the chance, pick it up and run with it.

Sure, the retail water-cooling scene is a drop in the ocean of the OEM world, but it is a scene that is growing. One day a manufacturer will see the market potential, look to break into that market-place with a pump that is as close to all things to all people as it can possibly get, and reap the market penetration rewards from that.

I'll continue to wave the flag and say that this is what is needed and what will work, with detailed rational explanations as to why, and hope that someone will answer the call.