Snap 12000 info / help?
 

I have just purchased a 12000 Snap! and can't find much info on them. Mine only reads "Backplane SW revison 1.4.2" on the display. I have upgraded a few Snap! 4000 and Dell 705N (Snap! 4100) models - I just don't know how to get the 12000 to do much. Can you lend a hand?

:doh: ...I was just informed this doesn't run Snap OS - am I totally screwed now?

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Thats better

=)


I cant say for definate about the OS.... Cause it isn't really mentioned anywhere

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

That is a guardian unit, meaning it uses the Guardian OS and it is not in flashram. You need to get your hands on a drive image for it.

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Any clues on how I can get that? Adaptec?

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

There is no way transfer the OS to a HD with having a working unit. Adaptec can sell you a drive with the os on it, as well as sleds if you require them. But they would not sell the sleds by them self. A user a while back had to do this.

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

The Snap 12000 will run the snap os and as for the Guardian OS it will not run any version past 2.1.

The 12000 was made to run the snap os not the guardian os. But will run the guardian os up to the version mentioned above, but in order to run guardian a chip on MB needs to be replaced with one that contains the boot loader.

The 14000 was made to run the guardian os.

Question for ADMIN69,

Does it ever say anything else on the display other than the backplane version?

Snap-tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Really? Wow, all of the 12000's I ever saw had Guardian on them. Good to know info (and from a good source). Does this mean other SNAP units might run Guardian OS up to 2.1?

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

No.

The reason is do to amount of Megabytes of the chip on MB.

I have a 12000 (first version of the 12000)that originally ran the snap os and was able to get the chip that allows me to run the guardian while I was still working at snap in the support department. Unfortunately I cannot run any version past 2.1 of the guardian os. Which I really don't care about. The only thing I am interested in when it comes to snaps now is the file system and any changes. Which there have been none on either the snap os or guardian through the different os versions.


If I remember correctly the guadian os needs at least an 8MB (maybe 4MB) chip which contains the boot loader. Or it is 16MB.

I cannot remember if the chip I have is 8MB or 4MB. I think it is 8MB in size.



Pheonix,

I did get your email and have been giving it some thought, but this is a good one and am not sure where to go on this one. I am still looking through my support files for any help, but have at least a GB worth of information. Some of it through email - pst files, doc, pdf and a few others.

Douglas snap-tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Well, it was worth asking... ;)

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

I never get anything more than that backplane version message. Is it totally screwed?

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

i THINK i saw that one on ebay a while back. Went for quite a bit if i recall. the Backplane version is what i remembered.

Dunno if it's screwed. Dont know anything about that series of Snap. Best try to get ahold of a SnapOS or Guardian OS drive image. Or pony up and buy one from Adaptec but that will cost you a small fortune.

Shane

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

My unit was doing the same thing after the move from CA to WA. I had to remove the mb and re-insert it to get it past the point that yours is at. Push real hard on the mb to make sure it is fully inserted in the slot.

And as I said in the Private message to you, try it without any drives. Also can you take a picture of the memory stick and email it to me at dfullersnap@yahoo.com? This unit takes a very specific stick of memory- If I remember correctly it needs to be a parity stick -- not a non-parity memory. Also, what processor speed does yours have? It should be 766mhz.

Try it without the drives inserted as well. it does not like certain drives for some reason.

As I understand from your message that not even the system led will come on after you power it up -- is this correct?


ALso make sure the cable that goes into the digital display is good and tight(inserted all the way).

Douglas Snap-Tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Also what nic card is in your unit? it should be an intel 1000pro/t or something like that. maybe a 1000t/pro or may even have the word "server" in it. I am not where mine is at so I can't look at it right now.

Douglas Snap-Tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

My unit was doing the same thing after the move from CA to WA. I had to remove the mb and re-insert it to get it past the point that yours is at. Push real hard on the mb to make sure it is fully inserted in the slot.

I have pulled the MB and re-inserted it. Same "BP Revision 1.4.2" message. I'm pretty sure I have inserted it correctly.

And as I said in the Private message to you, try it without any drives. Also can you take a picture of the memory stick and email it to me? This unit takes a very specific stick of memory- If I remember correctly it needs to be a parity stick -- not a non-parity memory. Also, what processor speed does yours have? It should be 766mhz.

Pulled the drives - IBM death star 40 GB - no change in status. I had tried swapping RAM but I am sure that both sticks are NON-parity. I have lots of parity at work I'll try. IIRC the CPU is a P3 733 that I swapped with a known good p3 800 - no change. I will swap RAM to some parity next - 100 MHz - correct?

As I understand from your message that not even the system led will come on after you power it up -- is this correct?

No LED's come on at all...

ALso make sure the cable that goes into the digital display is good and tight(inserted all the way).

I haven't messed with the ribbon cable thinking that if I have a display, the cable must be OK... I'll check that as well...

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Also what nic card is in your unit? it should be an intel 1000pro/t or something like that. maybe a 1000t/pro or may even have the word "server" in it. I am not where mine is at so I can't look at it right now.

I pulled the Intel 1000t/pro. Someone in the past didn't bother to read the directions for removing the card and forced it out. I don't think the card or slot are damaged. It looks like a plain old desktop 1000t - pretty sure I checked the PN and that is what I found it to be...

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

The cpu is ok. I meant 733 not 766.

Try the other memory. I will also try a stick of non-parity in mine and see if it only displays the backplane version later today and see.

Douglas Snap-Tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Made some SERIOUS headway today. Both jumpers were set on the MB (System reset and load from flash / ROM). Pulled them (jumpers) and replaced the RAM with 512MB PC100 ECC Compaq server RAM and I get it to boot!!!:D

I have tried four network cards and I still only can get the "Searching for IP" message, System LED flashes once a second and NO Link LED... I don't have any spare 64bit Intel Pro 1000 NICs but does it matter if I tried some 3COM 3c90x models as a test?

Can't get it to link so saying that Assist never finds it probably is redundant...

I am so close now... guess I'll track down a real server Pro 1000 NIC and see what that does.

Thanks for all the help!

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

great --- almost there.:nod:

I pulled my nic from mine and the following is what is written on the white sticker on back:

Intel PRO/1000T Server Adapter

I am sure that they did not load any other drivers for nic cards, so I don't think anything else will work.

Lets hope they didn't damage the slot by forcing the nic out.

Try the nic in another pc to make sure it works. I love this nic because it doesn't matter if you use a crossover or patch cable. It will detect and switch to use both.

I have about 50 of them but they are all in my storage back in CA(about 800 miles away).

Is there anything on the drives you inserted? If not, you are still going to need to load the actuall os on them. If you don't have the os on them and are able to get the nic to work then all you will get when you access through the web page is a page that will be asking you were to find the os at.

We also need to figure out if this unit is running the guarding os or snap os. It should have said something on the display while booting. can you write down all the messages it was saying while booting and post them so we can see what it is looking for.

Douglas Snap-Tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

great --- almost there.:nod:

I pulled my nic from mine and the following is what is written on the white sticker on back:

Intel PRO/1000T Server Adapter

I am sure that they did not load any other drivers for nic cards, so I don't think anything else will work.

Lets hope they didn't damage the slot by forcing the nic out.

Try the nic in another pc to make sure it works. I love this nic because it doesn't matter if you use a crossover or patch cable. It will detect and switch to use both.

I have about 50 of them but they are all in my storage back in CA(about 800 miles away).


I looked at the image in the Field Service Guide and have purchased a Pro 1000T Server NIC from eBay (the NIC that came in it was a desktop model - I suspect someone pulled the original Server NIC).


Is there anything on the drives you inserted? If not, you are still going to need to load the actuall os on them. If you don't have the os on them and are able to get the nic to work then all you will get when you access through the web page is a page that will be asking you were to find the os at.

We also need to figure out if this unit is running the guarding os or snap os. It should have said something on the display while booting. can you write down all the messages it was saying while booting and post them so we can see what it is looking for.

Haven't looked at the info on the drives yet. If it is Snap OS (hopefully), I won't have any problem once I get the NIC going. There was little to no info on the display when booting. It "Searches for IP" (never finds my DNS/DHCP - bad NIC); says "Domain Controller not found"; and "WORKGROUP: INTERSYSTEM". I did power up holding all three buttons down and went thru the "Hardware Test" - not very informative but it seems that all tests passed and then it powered down...

'Til I get a NIC in that works, I can't go much further I'm afraid. Doubt I'll get it in with the holiday this week...

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Did you try the nic in a pc to make sure it works?


There is a way to connect to system using the serial port on back, but I can't remember the comm port settings in hyperterminal. I think they are 9600, n , 8 , 2 or could be 9600, e , 8 ,2. it's been years since I have done it. You will also need a null terminal adapter(you can get one from Radio shack for a few bucks). If you attempt this you can change the settings untill the characters on screen look correct then your in. It's like using telnet to telnet into another system.

One way to tell if it is a guardian os is to connect drives to a pc running linux and see if you can see any partitions on drive. A snap os will not show any partitions but a quardian os is really nothing more than redhat linux. You can also use winhex or anything that will recognize a partition even if it is linux. THen you will know if it is guardian or snap os.

I am really getting currious about this unit and want to see it up and running for you.

Douglas Snap-Tech

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Did you try the nic in a pc to make sure it works?

Got a matching Intel Pro 1000 / T nic and it found my DHCP and is running fine :D

It has version 3.2.660 of SNAP! OS and BIOS 3.2.658. Should I just upgrade to version 3.4.803 or go to a version 4 of the OS? I intend to fill it with 250 GB drives and will NOT be needing the newer M$ AD support. Will the SNAP 12000 recognize 12 250 GB drives and will 3.4.803 be a high enough version to use the full drive capacity?

Thanks again for all the help!

SNAP 4000 256MB 4x300 & 4x40
Dell 705N 128MB 4x120 & 4x30
SNAP 12000 (SNAP OS) 512MB 4x40 -> 12x250?:p

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

I love reading happy stories : )

Xenoside

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

I would upgrade to OS v3.4.805 or v3.4.807 if you do not need the MS AD 2003 support.

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix32 I would upgrade to OS v3.4.805 or v3.4.807 if you do not need the MS AD 2003 support.

:doh: Tried upgrading to OS 3.4.805 and now the display reads:

Flash update utility
Waiting for update
I am 0.0.0.0

I have tried some of the console port settings mentioned above to get me back in but none seem to connect properly. Anyone else have a suggestion on the Hyperterm settings? (I have a standard serial cable and null modem cable - neither seem to do the trick).

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

I know it is poor form to quote yourself but I've had some PMs on this so here is where this currently stands:

A forum guru bailed me out - turns out I had "jumped" too many OS versions as well as BIOS revisons and had semi-bricked it. Took some pretty serious tricks to get it back but it does work again. Strange, though - If I upgrade the OS past 4.3.830 it craps out on me... weird.

My latest issue is that the spacing for the IDE & power connectors in the drive cage does not allow me to install WD 250GB drives - older Fujitsu and IBMs (20, 30 & 40GB) plug right in. Not sure if they changed the drive tray during production or if other brands of drives (over 137GB) will work??? Adaptec touted those models as supporting up to 3TB so some type of large drives had to fit...

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

From blue68f100:

The info I know on that model is that their were 2 different sleds for some model. It also did a shift for the IDE header, so it would align up, a small offset.

Your limit is actually proably the Snap OS, is capped around 1.2T. Ran in to this on 4000 models. The guardian OS does not have this limit.

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

There wouldn't be an issue if Western Digital drives had the same alignment for the ide and power connector.

Snap does have both versions of the adapter which just screws onto the end of the sled.

I am going to try and get my hands on some this week.

Luckily my friend that still works in snap support department sent me an email telling me that one of his friends has a 4000 and 2 drives are now being shown as bad. I told him I would recover the data at no charge, in exchange for ?, ?, ?.

So I will make the request this week.

Douglas

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by snap-tech There wouldn't be an issue if Western Digital drives had the same alignment for the ide and power connector. Snap does have both versions of the adapter which just screws onto the end of the sled. I am going to try and get my hands on some this week. Luckily my friend that still works in snap support department sent me an email telling me that one of his friends has a 4000 and 2 drives are now being shown as bad. I told him I would recover the data at no charge, in exchange for ?, ?, ?. So I will make the request this week. Douglas

Sweet!

Would you have some insight on the limitations of RAID5 array size on Snap! OS 3.4.8xx and higher on the 12000? I have a 4000 with 250GB drives RAID 5 working fine and one 4000 with 300GB RAID5 that works OK (no file save issues - 2+ years) but always emails an error to me on restart.

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Will tell you what we know. The snap OS seams to have a problem when the array is greater than 1.2T. 4 x 250 gig drives have never been a problem. 4 x 300 have been a different story. As long as the power supply is good, and the HW version is 3+ it seams to work. But a lot of users get the error message that you are refering to. Most (50/50) have reported errors every time it is rebooted and the snap goes through a resync. This has been tied back to a bad/weak power supply, and/or hardware v1 & 2. This is where the 12000 shines with it's robust power supplies. Now we do not see very may 12000, 12 drive model. So I do not know on how the arrays are built, meaning if you have the option to select 4 or 12 drives for the array. My guess would be 3 4 drive arrays. We had one user try to build a raid 0 with 2 x 750 gig in a 2200. The Snap OS refused to do it reporting some numbers was too large. One user that I recall tried 4 x 400gig array in a 4000. The size was cut down to 1T ( or slightly under), but had problems. After looking back we thing most of his problems ps related. But then he did not get the expected 1.2T. But I can confirm that my Guardian OS unit only created a 1.09T usable raid 5 array with 4 400gig drives. He also reported a problem with OS version on the 12000, could not upgrade to v 3.4.80x on it. Totally crashed the system and had to get Snap-Tech to bail him out. Snap-tech may be able to shine more inshight on the 12000, because he has one.

Thats my 2 cents or nickel's worth.

Phoenix32 may correct me on the 4000's issues.

Re: Snap 12000 info / help?
 

Hmmmm, what can I add? Okay, here goes...

Much like the 4100, there is some stupid crap going on inside the 4000 that makes no sense. There is no binary reason I can figure out why there should be a limit at 1 TB (or 1.2TB) with the 4000. It would make a lot more sense if it was at around 2.1 TB (I think it was 2.1, I just don't feel like doing the math right now).

Now with that said, you yourself are reporting errors with 4 x 300 GB drives? Why? Can you tell me? Probably not. There is a good chance it has nothing to do with the size itself, but it could be. Why? Because there are some who say 4 x 300 works fine with no errors. There are some who say 4 x 320 doesn't work at all and yet others who say they have 4 x 320 with no errors or problems. To the OS, a RAID 0 or a RAID 5 should make no difference (concerning size) and the SNAP 2000 (some of them, but not all) are based on the same type board and a 2000 user tried 2 x 750 (1.5 TB) and it gave him errors saying it was a proposterous number. So you tell me. So is it a power supply problem? Is it an OS problem? Is it a hardware limitation? Is it just a bone head user making assumptions? Is it certain brands of drives? Certain revisions? Etc Etc Etc... Too many questions and not enough answers...

Here is what I can tell you.

Looking at the different revisions (and I have seen all 4 of them), there seems to be no real difference in the chips or chipset being used or anything that should affect one doing a size larger than another revision. Please note I said should, but there is some evidence to back it up.

Two of the revisions use M/S (master slave) and two of them use CS (cable select). There is a stupid issue with the 4000 and it's hardware that when a drive in a M/S setup, depending on how it dies (if it is electronics, not physical head or disk) or if you power the unit up without it's partner, will drop the partner drive out as an orphan also. We all know what happens when you orphan 2 drives (the bad one and it's partner) in a RAID 5 array. If you don't, then ignore the rest of this message. The cure is to use CS, but this brings in a new problem. Sometimes, even with the proper cables etc, if you put the drives in CS, you will get random drive errors and dropping drives in and out of the array (which is useless). Now the interesting part of this is that it never does this with the set of original quantum 30 GB drives I have. This causes me to believe that it has to do with the drives themselves, not the 4000. Why? Because as a tech, I know for fact that some drives, when in CS mode, will not automaticly drop their interface speed down the current PATA/IDE interface speed being used. Meaning an ATA100 drive dropping to the ATA33 or ATA66 your controller might be using. I strongly suspect that is what happens here. You put the drives in CS, and with all the newer drives being ATA100 or ATA133, some of them do not downshift to the 4000 controller speed, so you get random errors. Can I prove it? No, but it is a damn good bet this is the real problem. Either way, on some 4000's, you are stuck with M/S, with some drive setups.

Then there is the beloved power supply. Now nobody is going to want to hear this, but here it is flat out. From a hardware spec point of view, you cannot use 4 x 250 GB drives (or similar) in the 4000. Why? Because the power supply is just not rated for it, that's why. The SNAP 4000 power supply is rated at 6A on the 12V rail. Look at the specs of any of the larger drives and you will fast see that when they are running, you are running the power supply at anywhere from 75% to 95% of rated spec 24/7. That is NOT recommended in any power supplies. A max rated spec is not for continuous use. But skip that for a moment. The big issue is spin up power. Look at the spin up current required for most modern larger drives. The Seagate 250 GB drive is 2.8A for an example (A very common drive used by 4000 owners). 4 x 2.8 = 11.2A. Ummm last time I checked, 11.2 is significantly larger than 6 (almost double). Now here is the up side to this. The power supplies used in the 4000 seem to be pretty solid electronics and let us get away with it for these short bursts and long term usage., but just KNOW that you are far exceeding rated spec.

Keeping on the power supply, we also know these 4000 units are getting long in the tooth (old). Meaning these power supplies get weaker over time and use. If you get a 4000 with a marginal power supply, what will happen is you will see random drives drop in and out when you power the unit up. It will drive you nuts trying to figure out what is going on, and all along it is a marginal power supply causing the issues. Trust me, I have seen this in 2 different units first hand and it sucks.

Now I know this is about the 4000, but keep in mind what I am about to say for the next paragraph(s). In the 4100, we have seen people use 160 GB drives quite often and get the max 137 GB of the unit. But every once in a while, a user will tell us his won't work. Every time I can think of at the moment, it has been with maxtor drives. Interesting isn't it (in a Spock kinda way)? Sounds to me like the problem is not the user's 4100, but rather maxtor, or at least certain revisions of maxtor 160 Gb drives. Why? Because when a few of these users have swapped to other brand 160 GB drives, it all worked fine.

Now we get to the REAL PROBLEM. The real problem is the people reporting their results. People do not test and report properly. Some guy sticks 4 hard drives in CS mode into his 4000 and it get's all flakey, so he reports "You can't use drives in CS mode in the 4000". BULLCRAP! 2 of the revisions of the 4000 came with drives in CS and the other two revisions will in fact use cable select with the right cable and drives. The problem was his conclusions. His problem may lay elsewhere, like the drives maybe, and their ATA speed, or the cable, hint hint. Then another guy sticks 4 x 250 GB drives in his 4000 and it goes all flakey, so he reports, "You can't use 4 x 250 GB drives in a 4000". In both cases, they reported it as fact. Well guess what? Plenty of people use 4 x 250 GB drives in their SNAP 4000. Maybe the problem is your power supply being marginal with those drives or the model of hard drive? But, but, but, but, my 4 x 80 GB drives worked fine and these 250's, same brand, don't. Well #1, same brand does not mean they work exactly the same. Hard disks, even of the same model number sometimes, go through plenty of revisions and these revisions change things. Then #2, even if they are in the same family, and rated the same for specs, I can promise you, that those 80 GB drives draw a lot less power during spin up than those 250 GB drives do. It's called physics (mass and energy). Then there is the opposite. Someone does something, and it appears to work, so he comes back and says "such and such works in the 4000", like it is fact. Then later, when one of the drives fails or something, he replaces the drive and the array won't rebuild. Maybe because of something else, but also maybe because his conclusions about such and such working may have been wrong. This is the case with the 4 x 300 Gb and 4 x 320 GB drives and why David and I refuse to say it does or doesn't work. Just not enough testing completed to prove it out.

So the REAL PROBLEM is people reporting their results. They see one result and then ASSUME things and report that thing as FACT. That is why there has been so much confusion on this forum about a great many subjects. Too much assuming going on and not enough COMPLETE testing. THEN, when you ask someone to try this or that or to test something, quite often, the reply is, "sorry, I don't have the time" (after you wasted your time helping them) or they never come back and report what happened. They get what THEY NEED and then disappear. Sorry, truth is truth and I am 100% sure the regulars around here will back me up on that. The long and short is that most of us just do not have the money to go out and buy every SNAP type and revision as well as all kind of disk sizes (in sets) to test and figure out where limits are and what does and does not work. For example, David and I have a working theory on the 4 x 300, 4 x 320 GB, and 4 x 400 GB drive setups. But guess what? David does not have a 4000 and I cannot afford the drives to do the testing myself on my various 4000 units. So unless we can find someone who has these things and is willing to test TOP TO BOTTOM for facts, we just have to continue to give GENERAL parameters and elusive answers. We are doing our best.

NOW, before someone says, "There goes Phoenix on a rant again". I am not ranting or even a little bit ruffled right now, honest. I am just answering the question I was directly asked by name and being totaly open and honest about it. Admin69, please do not think I am ranting at you. I am just trying to clue you in to how elusive some of these answers you want really are, and why.

What I can tell you is; (and yes, it changes over time with real results aquired and new theories)

- 4 x 250 GB works in the 4000
- 4 x 300 and 4 x 320 should work in the 4000
- 4 x 400 and even 4 x 500 might work in the 4000
- 4 x 750 will probably not work

- the 4000 power supply is over spec with modern large drive sizes
- the 4000 will act flakey and random if the power supply is marginal (and this includes maybe even sending errors on startup)

- M/S setups in the 4000 are very risky with RAID 5 setups if a drive fails
- CS setups in the 4000 work just fine, but may require a cable modification and may have problems with some drives (brands or models)

- I seriouly doubt we will every know what the real story is on some of the "whys" because it is buried deep in the OS, BIOS, and built in drivers which we do not currently have access to nor probably ever will.

- Guardian units are way to noisy (sound like hair dryers) for most home users use (this one was just for David)


There ya go.... :D