Tests of a #rotor style block...and a question
 

http://www.overclockers.com/articles690/

Does very well, although may require more pump than some other designs.

And for the question: I saw a drill press in Canadian Tire ad today for $49CAD ($30 off). The specs are 8" drill press, 2.4A, 1/4hp, 5 spindle speeds, 1/2" chuck, depth stop.

Would this drill press be suitable for making these type blocks out of copper bar stock? Cause if so, I think I am going to pick one up for enlarging fittings and drilling out waterblock baseplates for thermocouples and for making the odd block or two :)

not sure what the 8" relates to ??
but I bought the absolute CHEAPEST (Chinese) drill press I could find on eBay; $29 plus shipping
- shakes like Janet Reno
and eveerything out of plumb (get a square and start checking and correcting)

but I can drill a 1/16" hole in copper 2" deep

go for it

yea, #Rotor could have had a good little business with a different approach
- and the numbers could be improved (over what was tested)

if u have the courage to dig through this thread phaestus, u should have the answers to all your q'z + a complete worklog with all the trial and errors of me an puzzdre on our first rotor block. with some good advice of the maester himself.

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=4766


and for a rotor design thread, after some brainstorming i designed something with alot of help. what was suggested in the end was not practically doable but i came close to what i think is a block that will be hard to improve when using the drill method. if u feel the urge to design, plz do also make a contribution in this thread. since the whole rotor style is open source, it would be nice to have a thread that encompasses all the good designs for that particular method.

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...&threadid=5114

@ BillA , we prolly have the same mark of chinese rubish drill press. the price diff between a good one will be felt in the spindle vibration. the preciseness of the depth stops (non existant on mine, if u want to be precise, measure every hole with a caliper). so a cheap press is ideal if u make 5 blox or less per year. if u do more u will want one where u can use bigger feed rates (more HP) , more precise depth stops (less time per hole because u don't need caliper). don't forget that the drilling process itself doesn't consume that much time. lapping, making the mask, punching the pilot holes, threading, those are all things that also take alot of time and precision. so go with a cheap drill, invest the saved money in the best quality tappers u can find.

Go for it pHaestus!!!:cool:

The price is good, and BillA is right, it shakes like hell. As for the depth precision, it seems to me that I was lucky, cos' I can be sure into the depth of the hole in approx. +/- 0.5 mm, and g.l.amour reported his drill press cannot be trusted for 3 mm in depth 'precision'...

I also managed to drill almost 2" (4.5 mm) 2 mm dia holes in copper (actually, drilled a whole row of holes making the xyinn's kinda block, started another row and snapped the bit, but that was in the beginning and I was too excited and in a hurry to make the block...)

Try to fasten the drill onto the heavy and steady surface to reduce the shaking of the drill. Mine is still fine, although I used mill bits and my hands to mill some channels in blocks I made, and the ball bearings are still fine. For that price, it's better to have one and make some good stuff!:p

Ofcourse, post lot's of pics!;)

Good luck!

1 addl suggestion:

DO buy a drill vise, but NOT a Chinese one
spend $15 to 30 for a used 3 or 4" good one

note:
after I trued the adjustable 'table' (and ground the high-center off it !),
I bolted a 15" sq piece of 1/2" thick aluminum plate to it
much easier to use that way

OK thanks guys. I have a bit of money to purchase the drill vise too; I think I will hit Canadian Tire up this weekend. I am somewhat heartened by the fact that the drill press was $80 initially and just on big sale now rather than always having been the bottom of the line.

edit: Found a description here: http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortmen...=1043543885136

Will go get tomorrow with a drill vise

egg xat ly the same shakey bastard

get a rt angle square and file and shim 'till you get everything sq wrt the vertical column

enjoy

watch the motor heat, it is a LIGHT duty cycle 'design'
(Owenator burned up his motor, as did I - got sent a new one)

Ah well should have known that $49 CAD (that's uh about $31US) wouldn't buy me too much.

get your self an X-Y vice, makes drilling a grid of holes a breeze, among other things.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/volenti/drillpress.jpg

That looks like the same vise I use. It works good although it's a bit sloppy.

there are adjustments to tighten it up but the build quality it too poor to keep it tight for very long, typical cheap chinese stuff :cry:

see.... I told you guys, shade-tree technicians RULE :D :D

I do indeed agree with you Bill. My approach to this block-building thing was not entirely the most efficient, from a money making point of view.... but then again.... I was(still am) more interested in helping people get their flakes wet, making money from it, would have been nice and I guess can still be accomplished, but I found on too many an occasion, the money is what makes, what could have been a beautiful thing, go so bad, so fast, so often.

hehe..... kinda makes me thing of the man that got given the choice between infinite wealth and infinite wisdom... he eventually chose wisdom. upon which he immediately realized that he should have taken the money.... :D

well #rotor; respect doesn't pay the rent. but your approach certainly earns you alot of it. its like spreading the word...

btw, i'm glad bill got round to testing the basic block, and i'm proud to be part of a building method that can be infinitely adjusted and is among the best.

as i've said alot of times, thx #rotor. (it would be nice to get a small guestbook on your site to get some reactions)

heres the correct link
linky

i wouldn't mind getting that drillpress, nice and cheap :D

that's not the only thing it can't pay for... :D

I do not have a guestbook, but I do have this.

just promise you won't laugh at my colors :)

I couldn't have said it better g.l.amour. As I have said before, many times "The #Rotor style block is very efficient and effective". I have posted my temps with my block before and some may have been a little skepicle, but this style of block building is fantastic, cheap if you have the tools, and easy to build. Also as a side note. Although the narrow channels cut by the Dremel may look to be restrictive, you don't need alot of flow to get good results. I've ran this block with a 1048 as well as an Via 1300 and got the same results.

yes they cool extreemly well.

Well well look who's back from the dead. Where have you been? It's good to see you back web.

I got a $80 drill press for $49.00 at harbor Freight. I discovered it is identical the the Delta model and several other models. It is just relabled and painted! It is a solid one.

I must say I am very well setup for Roto style blocks. My little CNC mill is just perfect for this. REV. 3.0 will be a drilled one.

Has anyone done a comparison between the #Rotor style block versus the Xjinn style block? Both use a drill press as the most complicated piece of equipment for construction. Both have high surface area, but the Xjinn blocks have much higher restriction to prevent laminar flow (with enough velocity, channels of small enough diameter are supposed to be entirely turbulent flow).

Anyone have a take on it?

Not sure but I still have a #rotor block here along with all the others I collected allthough I'm not sure I would seriously look at doing a shootout with them all again. I still find some of logic fataly flawed when dealing with systems as regualar users will use it but there is not one cpu used that has built in temp senser that will get you better than +-10c. So it's really hard to judge when the cpu's simply cant be exact enough. The mobo temp sensors are even worse.

Basicly they are enough to keep you from frying your cpu but thats about it.

how many hours do you roughtly have on that CPU block...

#rotor if your were refering to me. I started looking into collecting pieces for the water block shootout and my determination is that billa's testing is flawed is based on the fact that no user will ever be able to use thier water cooled sysem in the fashion billa is testing. So we will never see the results that he is getting. The information that bill and myself discovered about the inacuracies of the temp sensors built into both the cpu's and motherboard is even worse than anyblody origianly thought. I think I still have the pdf's arround if anybody wants them from both intel and amd.

However this does not invalidate his testing. It does give us a very good source of information but the results will only be true for a system running under the exact same conditions as his testing setup. Since most if not all users will not be able to maintain or setup this type of test equipment it becomes a moot point in regular systems. There will be allot of variables which will not be the same as what billa is testing with.

Unless he can test in the varied ways in which the watercooled systems will be used his results simple will but insufficient for proper analysis. This understanding basicly drove me from water cooling for a while and I simply have not been doing any since then.

So my blocks have not had much use for a while.

I'm currently working on a referigerated system that should be able to regualte temps within the system but even with this setup how many users do you know with a water fountain in thier system?

any "C/W" is specific to that system only
care to be more specific ?

"insufficient for proper analysis"

1) specifically what is insufficient ?

2) what constitutes "proper analysis" ?

webmedic
A post or two proving your research to disprove BillA conclusion is constructive critisim. Saying his results are thrown out because you find a variable in your tests isn't exactly conclusive that you can dismiss the most qualitative rational availiable.
I personally find his results most helpful in planning out my next setup and equipment. More so than most disposable opinions that only rely on what they have been told to think, or have been paid to promote. I can easily dismiss 90% of the posters opinions on blocks, but BillA's data can't be dismissed as easily. I think it would be most irresponsible to not answer BillA's questions. If you can't answer them, then you can't dismiss them so quickly, neither should anyone else.

Ah I was waiting for this bill. Hm No use in arguing with you learning hath made the mad.

You know as well as I that the c/w is not completely what is being refered to here and you above all others should know that in a system with different pumps and different blocks the performace will vary widely depending on how the system is tuned.

Show me one person that will be able to fit your 1500-2000$ worth of equipment into his case and take it to the lan party and I'll admit I'm wrong. (no frankencases either).

Untill then show me one pump on the market that will vary it's output depending on the block it's put on. Well there may be some expensinve high end pumps that will vary their output but still no user will have such a thing.

So bill you know know a bunch of c/w ratings that in itself is good. this shows you that pump a at pressure a performs better than pump b at pressure a fine and dandy. What iwould like to know if is you take a pump that any regular user will use and put a block on it how it will perform compared to another pump on the exact same setup. In other words no adjustments to guess at different pressure ratings. This was my idea all along. In your estimation the test would be to simple but it wore closely represent what other users will see.

It is this relization of just how extensive the testing would be that made me back off as I'm sure you know. I don't have the money, resources, or extensive knowledge of thermo dynamics. However that does not leave me bereft of common sence. My learning is on other fields witch I use to make a living with.

So for me it's down to doing this for fun. The same fun which was almost killed by overrationalization. I will not try to argue with you on this point since you either refuse to prove me wrong or simply hide behind your learning. Really I'm sure thee are many that really want to know billa. There are very few poeple who can do this testing as I'm sure you know. You have the equipment prove me wrong with the numbers if you can.

All I'm asking for is a test as the users would use it on a day to day basis not in a 2000$ lab.

I'm not trying to dismiss him. His data is very good for builders of blocks not users. As far as being unbiased yes as far as I know he is that and I have no proof otherwise. I was answering him when you posted so you will need to read my post above.

that rant is a bit incoherent there webmedic, so I will take the liberty of paraphrasing your critique to try and identify the specific part(s) of my test procedure with which you find fault

is it "in a system with different pumps and different blocks the performace will vary widely depending on how the system is tuned" ?

it is not clear to me where you are headed with this comment
- a specific WCing system will have a single flow rate deriving from the pump and other components selected (and their installation)
? - how does one "tune" a WCing system ?
and no, unless one changes the air flow (or its temp) through the rad, that system will have but a single "C/W"

now "with different pumps and different blocks" the performance will change
- but then these are different systems, no ?

your question: "What iwould like to know if is you take a pump that any regular user will use and put a block on it how it will perform compared to another pump on the exact same setup."
is easily answered -> look at the fu*ken pumps' P-Q curves !

(a clue here to get you started: if pump B's curve is above and to the right of pump A's, the wb WILL perform better with pump B - the CPU will be cooler)

webmedic
this question has NOTHING AT ALL to do with my testing, and everything to do with users (including you) knowing how to use the pump mfgr's data sheets
- you seem to be under the impression that understanding wb performance requires testing each pump with each wb; this is completely wrong
(and if you follow that dead end to its conclusion you will have to test each pump, wb, rad, hose size, and fitting combination and permutation to 'understand' wb performance)

I am suspecting you are also confusing 'pump (discharge) pressure' with 'pressure drop'
- the pump pressure per se in the ranges we deal with is largely irrelevant to wb performance
- and the pressure drop across the wb is a function of the flow rate, nothing more

for my tests I use a large pump and 'drop' the excess pressure/flow capacity across a throttling valve and by so doing am able to replicate the performance of ALL pumps as I can vary the flow rate from low to high

webmedic,
your difficulty is that you do not understand how to read the graphs
each one portrays a continuum of results, but only one single point on a curve will be germane to a specific system

it is quite un-necessary that I 'prove' anything, the test results are in the public domain, and my equipment and procedures are rather fully described
and please, $2000 ? - oh my !
no, its now rather beyond $20,000 (and still outa control !)

I have no difficulty with criticism, its good because it forces me to re-assess my activities and conclusions
I would suggest that you spend some additional time reading some of the articles, and GOOGLE what you don't understand
-> in the future, try to be VERY SPECIFIC in describing what you do not agree with, for then I will limit my response to the points you raise

and yes webmedic, I understand that there are others who also have difficulty understanding what I present -- but to 'play technical' you have to (learn to) 'talk technical'

Firts let me say Never mind bill i can read your data just fine it just so happens I've been gone for a long time and had not read your latest I just went over to overclockers and read it. Very good stuff bill.

By the way bill I do understnad at least enough to be dangerous but mostly I understand enough to be able to fdraw out the data and use it for my own project wich are simply for fun now.

Forgive me for even saying anything I will just sit back now and enjoy the sport of watercooling.

Having said that it's time to have fun again.

And bill thanks for you dedication to this and providing a cource of data to the community.

Please forgive me.

its cool webmedic - nothing to forgive

but if you say ""insufficient for proper analysis",
I'm going to ask how so