? Why use an oil cooler for water ?
 

I don't get it.
Why the use of (automotive transmission fluid) oil coolers to cool water ?

The deltaT between (auto trans) oil and the air is much greater than the water to air deltaT common to computer applications.
So the stacked plate (oil) radiators have different design criteria than radiators for water.

Has ANYONE ever seen a stacked plate oil cooler used in place of a tube and fin water cooling radiator in a car or truck ?

The only reason that the stacked plate radiators work for computer watercooling is because they have sufficient "excess" capacity for the particular application.

I guess its all about marketing and uninformed consumers.

be cool

Cause you can get them in price ranges from $0-$30 unless you get them from OCHideout then you pay too much for them there. But the price range I quote isn't for stacked plate coolers as they are more costly then the standard 4 pass tube type radiators that are most common.

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Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600

Uhhh..Bill... so whats yer point???

if it works.. what's the issue? just that its not "meant" to work?

Also calling readers and folks who use these products and have them working pretty damn well, "uninformed" is fairly harsh I would say.

You DO know that this isn't like a real R+D'd industry ( on the radiator side of the industry) right?? so as in any HOBBY you improvise.

You use what works for you, just that simple.

Someday Bill you may realize you don't know it all, and that some other people MAY have some better experiences with products. Your opinions are just that, but in the same sentence to rip ALL the thousands of people who USE the radiators as their main cooling, is just ignorant.

"The only reason that the stacked plate radiators work for computer watercooling is because they have sufficient "excess" capacity for the particular application.

I guess its all about marketing and uninformed consumers."

Ok... so .. what you suggest?? a "Computer CPU radiator" at your local computer shop? or what?? and if it works, why argue it? You that bored, that you need to sit around and think of what all those "uninformed" customers MAY be doing that could in some way be wrong? Then slam it, but never offer a better solution? If only everyone was "informed" like you....

BTW: from tests I have run, and a few associates have run, the 4x4" stacked plate radiator out performed a 5x10 tube/fin radiator ( like the POS one OCH sells). I am still looking for the radiator that was specifically designed to cool a 100watt temp source.. until then a 4x4 stacked radiator works just jim dandy.

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C-ya
Joe - Owner/Editor www.ProCooling.com
Where the Completely Addicted Come to Cool Off

Somebody set up us the bomb.

[This message has been edited by Joe (edited 01-21-2001).]

Right... but they work.

Guilty as charged.
My concluding observation was inappropriate and unnecessary, sorry.

But there are choices! Also at 100W. And with a 156W TEC, one's at 200!
I believe I've seen no critical reports on the DangerDen cube,
the Swiftech radiator that they used to sell (not the present black one),
and that incompletely developed flat tube and fin one that OCWC has tested and is selling (?).

Joe, your quite correct to look at over-capacity as that is the only way to get close to ambient, and as the total load rises it becomes harder and harder to maintain that over-capacity factor.

If you decide to do some comparative radiative testing, I'll loan you a couple of small flat tube and fin units, one all copper and the other all aluminum, removed from medical equipment. And they will fit inside a big case.

Very much improvised Kevin, both off eBay at $5 and $10 ea.
"Right... but they work."
But if people understand something about how they work, and why a unit may work for one but not another - then they can make more informed choices.
We've been here before Kevin, for me the learning process (and it IS ongoing) involves separating each element into pieces, looking at them, and then assembling them in a better way. Of course they must then be critically tested.

I don't think a chorus of "they're all good" helps us learn anything.
You want some radiators Joe ?

be cool

All I know is that I got my radiator for free. And the setup I have on my K6-2 450@550 will NEVER EVER go over 100F while the room is between 80-90F. The only time my system suffers is when the room is as hot as the CPU is and that is a given.

If you really wanna get into techincal stuff, go to the [H]ardForum, mota on there has bought a radiator from Lyton(or something similar) and a heat transfer unit for a peliter. That may be the closet radiator to "computer purpose" that you'll find...but it cost a bunch load.

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Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600

BillA, you keep saying "making informed choices." Whether the radiator is desingned for cooling H2O or not, it works. People don't care what it was designed for. They want it to work. When people buy Chip's OCWC radiator. It keeps their water at room temp. They know this. They buy it. How is that not an "informed choice?"
Give people some credit, BillA...
Late.

ok Kevin, I'll take another whack at it, but I'm already regretting having started this thread.

The name of this site is Pro Cooling, so I'll admit as to my having some expectation of a serious treatment of those things pertaining to cooling. And Joe at least is so inclined.

I do assume that those watercooling (a small, but growing minority) would like to benefit (learn ?) from the experience of others; saving themselves having to learn it the hard way.

I would divide the watercooling "camp" into 3 groups:
1) those cooling without a TEC;
2) those cooling with a 70-80W TEC; and
3) those cooling with a high wattage or multiple TECs.

I just re-read the "radiator ?" thread, and remembered just why I chose to start a new one.
Kevin, you suggest that I "give people some credit", ok; for anecdotal evidence, half baked theories of design, and no relation of radiator design and materials to loading differences and heat transfer capability.

I do not agree with the idea of a "general" recommendation as the component will be used in a specific system. Those doing technical projects presumably have that interest, otherwise go and buy the GD computer from Dell or Apple.

I'm passing familiar with mota's, Steve Foster's, and Shannon Birt's projects; and to me at least its obvious that the progression is air to water to phase change (direct or super-cooled liquid). These designs are evolutionary, be quite assured they DO ask why and how: Because that is the path to improvement.

It is my hope, and goal, to find threads where cooling components are discussed and explained in detail, where references are provided, and even where specific products are "debunked". I've no axe to grind, I just don't want to waste my money and time.

I do not equate an opinion with facts.
And I note that you take me to task for items not related to the "technical" issues I tried to raise.
Si'down, si'down, si'down yer rockin' da boat.

be cool

Dont have much time to get into this as I am running out the door:

Yes the site is ProCooling, if you would have posted your original comments with some technical merit, or even a point, it would have been taken seriously.

But when you post like you did just to knock the thousands that use the radiator cause you got some problem with it... that doesnt recieve that serious of a reply.


------------------
C-ya
Joe - Owner/Editor
www.ProCooling.com
Where the Completely Addicted Come to Cool Off

Somebody set up us the bomb.

I do hereby withdraw my previous comment about Joe having technical inclinations.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Joe, if you've not time to do it right, stifle it.

READ the first post.
Read your last post.
I conclude that either:
1) you can't read (not true); or
2) you can't understand (possible); or
3) you just can't bear the thought that you've been aggressively promoting a product that's suitable for low wattage applications.

Take it from the top:
I made 3 VERY valid points.
I asked 2 direct and germain questions.
And I made a cynical observation (about my old profession of marketing) that caused all you children to run in circles screaming
"He called my baby ugly".

And I just re-read your last post and realize that I'm the one wasting my time.

But I still will loan you some radiators if you've any curiosity.

[This message has been edited by BillA (edited 01-21-2001).]

Uhhh...

OK I will answer your questions in the first topic:

1. Cause it works
2. Yeppers! - Saw them as an oil cooler on few trucks at a dealership (some towing package), as well as tranny coolers for my families ATV's.

Ok that make you happy? and no your post had no point but to ignite argument. I just figure you were bored and wanted a fight.

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C-ya
Joe - Owner/Editor
www.ProCooling.com
Where the Completely Addicted Come to Cool Off

Somebody set up us the bomb.

So BillA is a linguist too? Gee BillA, I'm impressed, ass.

C'mon guys. Get it together here.

As an innocent bystander I can understand BOTH sides of this thread. I can see that *users* just want to know that it works (they, the masses, have little desire to why it's better technically).

And those who want something that works, but want to KNOW WHY it works better. My previous job stuck me right in the middle of this type of situation with Engineering and customers.

Myself, I fall into the later category. I think that understanding something can enable to you come up with something even better than the current best. That's the cool thing about understanding the technical properties of the product. Quite a revelation, huh?

I myself, unless rigourously constrained, will HARP to no end about A/B testing, testing methodologies, and process control. This type of thing tends to annoy people in the first camp so I try to contain myself as much as possible.

The biggest problem I see with water cooled products RIGHT NOW is that not enough comparison testing is occuring. And even most tests are not being done very well. I realize that not everyone has the money to go out and purchase all the competing products let alone the time to sit around and conduct detailed, controlled tests. So, I sympathize.

But, I think that once this DOES occur, and it will eventually, people will see the leading product and buy it in DROVES. This leads to the *losing* product makers to actually do some REAL engineering work to make a better product than the current leader. THIS is when things actually get to the point where the average consumer starts learning (wanting to learn) about the science behind it.

BillA, we just havn't quite reached that point yet in water cooling products... http://www.procooling.com/ubb/frown.gif

For proof of this, look back at the air cooled heat sinks. They started out as just being 'small' or 'big'. Then people started getting technical about it. Along comes radically different physical desings, different material constructions, better thermal paste, etc. etc.

So, given enough time when people KNOW which product is best, consumers will want better than the best. Right now in water cooling, we are practically at the point where in air cooled heatsinks we just either bought a smaller or bigger one...and that was the extent of the science behind it.

Well...I'm getting wordy again...another fault of mine, so I'll just shudup now.

Here is some proof of what ck42 said, a water cooling evoulotion chart:

Large bucket -> Ice Chest -> standard tranny cooler -> stacked plate radiator -> ???



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Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600

CK you are right. The only reason there is an argument bout this, is that there was a statement saying that "this sucks" but not how we can get "this" to perform better.

I do also agree with mpfmax on how the radiators have evolved. In the last 2 years the evolution was from an igloo with some ice that you would refill every day, to stacked plate radiators. The next evolution may be to something that's specifically designed for a CPU+Pelt temp cooling. Until then the Stacked plate coolers are the best out there.

I know some people see the radiator as a waste and think its just more feasible to get a lab chiller or something, but that's not to practical or portable for most people. So we go with what works.

Atleast being able to keep a 150watt pelt and a Tbird like I saw at the LAN below thermo nuclear temps with a small 4x4" stacked plate radiator worked! I mean what else do you want? Small, light, durable, and works...

I do think possibly make'n one outta Cu and increasing the surface area a lil bit could yield even more good stuff. and from what I hear OCWC has a new 5x5" Cu radiator that may smoke the stacked plate ones.

Bill also started the same cry fest on the Hard Forums to Kev's post but STILL just rag'n on the radiator but offered no constructive recomendation. Were you hurt as a child with a Stacked plate radiator or something bill.. you sure got a chip on yer shoulder bout em..


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C-ya
Joe - Owner/Editor www.ProCooling.com
Where the Completely Addicted Come to Cool Off

Somebody set up us the bomb.

[This message has been edited by Joe (edited 01-22-2001).]

mfpmax:

You are right about the radiator/watercooled evolution. But if you looked at the big picture, it's still in its infancy compared to the time line that could be seen with HeatSink/Fans. HSF have been maxed out practically from what I can see. Not sure *how* else they can be improved in major ways...only little steps here and there. As far as radiators are concerned, there's really nothing scientific behind the current status. We've simply been using guess&test to find something better.

Joe:

I used to get into mental fist fights quite frequently because of my technical nature. I'd argure with the guys who just wanted something that works about how silly they were for buying something because it wasn't proven and what not....they drove me nuts http://www.procooling.com/ubb/smile.gif

I've since learned to pick my fights because I've learned that there are apparently these two groups (if not more) of people.

1) The guys who want something that works.
2) The guys who want to prove the best product scientifically...then buy it.

The guys in group 1 gotta remember that its the guys in group 2 that bring on the new/better products eventually.

The guys in group 2 gotta remember that the group 1 guys don't want to be bored with the details and want to get their rigs RUNNING like yesterday! 'I don't care if I have to put a stuffed pig in my case if it means my cpu runs 6C cooler!'

Normally, I'd say it's bad to place people into categories like this but in certain cases it helps to keep the peace when we each know where the other guy is coming from.

So...BillA, remember, most of the group1 guys (not all) don't want to hear the boring details....some do. Group 1.5? Group2 guys gotta work dilegently behind the scenes and run test then introduce it.

Joe...remember, we need the boring geeks (myself included here) to figure out how to improve this *stuff*. My guess is that maybe Bill is frustrated with the group1 guys and is venting. I'm definately guilty myself of started flame threads because of being irritated with the group1 guys. Oh, and another thing about group2 guys...we like formulas http://www.procooling.com/ubb/smile.gif We like to be able to figure something out by just plugging in the numbers....NOT buying something because 8 people in a thread did and said it 'rox0rs!!'

I swear I don't seem to be able to keep these things short....sorry.

CK I agree, and honestly I am in category 2.. I just want to know what Bill thinks is better?!?


He posted something saying a type of radiator was bad, but never offered a radiator that works better. Now if he woulda put something up saying

"Stacked radiators blow, but type X radidator is by far better in these ways" then that would be a post, and we would all be happy and discussing it. But instead it was
"Stacked radiators Blox, you guys are soo stupid for using them."

If Bill would come off his high horse and discuss the topic like adults, instead of trying to give the impression he is in some way better then everyone... I think we would be cool.

The question still stands for anyone:
WHAT is better then a stacked plate radiator?! Please explain why also. Thats all I want to know! cause as of now.. all I know about Bills take on it is that hes bent over them, and.. well.. doesn't like people that use them, sounds more like a personal issue then a serious discussion.


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C-ya
Joe - Owner/Editor
www.ProCooling.com
Where the Completely Addicted Come to Cool Off

Somebody set up us the bomb.

Joe and a few others fell into a bit of a bad trap there.

You guys in a way were set up and it was your own faults that you responded in the way that you did. Remember that line from Pulp Fiction regarding pride?

Now its not as if BillA came in and said straight up that you guys are fools. From your replies to his original post you have done the job for him. And its not as if you were unprepared for his style of questioning. You should all know by now that BillA has a much better grasp of thermal dynamics when it comes to water cooling than your average Senfu owner. He also likes people to be able to substantiate any claims they make. Hell, if someone tells me a 300 MHz Cyrix processor is going to out perform a 1.2GHz Thunderbird I also have a tendency to ask for specific details.

Hiding behind the response of, " yeh, but what is your point? Do you know of a better solution?", is bullshit. There were a few very simple questions asked and everyone has failed to answer them. Sorry to break up your happy little gathering of chums here but you guys would have found it a lot easier to have answered his questions quite simply then fired it back at him.

Observe.

Yes, it does sound funny that we are using oil coolers for water cooling. But we have done EXTENSIVE testing for units of similar sizes and found these units do much better than your regular water cooling radiator. I don't have any thermal dynamics background and frankly, it becomes a little too hard to get any mathematical formula regarding flow rates and thermal conductance rah, rah, rah for any water cooling system. Way too many factors involved. Thats more like some physicists or mathematicians PhD project!

Just remember, in order to say something is better, you need to do testing. Otherwise don't make claims. If someone wants figures and you don't have them, tell them or ask them to get them.

Further down the list of replies, BillA offered a whole lot of radiators for testing. How hard would it have been for Joe to have used it to his own advantage. How you might ask?

By doing the following:

"BillA, thats a great idea because I wont even begin to work out the mathematical side of things. Actually, it would be easier if I sent you an oil cooler to test with the ones you have. Keep all the other components identical, just change the radiators. When you have the figures, I'll write an article and post it on my site. That'll be good!"

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers to BillA's questions. But I'm sure that if people stopped getting offended because they are being asked to substantiate their claims they can probably be answered.

Simple!

Cheers

Memphis

The way things work not only in the overclocking world, but in most industry is that research into a bigger/better/cheaper alternative to something does not occur until it is seen as the lagging piece of the puzzle. For example, the whole memory bandwidth problem inherent to today's videocards was not investigated into until it was realized that it is the limiting factor in its performance. The current radiators being used in watercooling rigs if equipped with a decent enough fan are more than adequate in keeping the coolants fairly close to room temperature. When and if they actually become the limiting factor in watercooling, then you may see more work and research being done into the radiators. Until then, price and usability are much more important than trying to get the highest performing radiators out there. The biggest problem in watercooling is on the opposite side of the radiator. It is how to pull 75 watts of heat off of a piece of electrical equipment that has less surface area than a dime. Once that is mastered, then perhaps, the radiator will become the limiting factor and we may very well see educated comparisons between them.

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ondaedg@procooling.com

Good call todd!

All I know is I still impress people with my 5x12 radiator http://www.procooling.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Watercooled K6-2 450 at 600

well.. maybe i can give all u guys an answer.. i'm certainly a group 2 guy..

I've got a 5x10 (") radiator with a 100 CFM 120MM PAPST fan...

and i'm gonna get in the near feature 2x156W from tedist or kryotherm...

these babies will put out about 350W heat under load..

so I AM pushing the envelope here of the radiator..

I am going to buy a second 100CFM fan..
but i need an oil cooler and an additional carheater-radiator...

i was thing about a test-setup like this

1 car-rad(10x5) + 100CFM
2 car-rads + 100CFM (stacked and parallel)
1 car-rad + 200CFM
2 car-rads + 200CFM
1 oil-rad + 100CFM
1 oil-rad + 200CFM (stacked and parallel)

anybody has recommendations for the oil-coolers?? (I want to get em from the junkyard.. so I don't waste my hard-earned money!)

stay cool!

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OC'ing is my middlename

Today my lil Oil cooler keept my CPU at -15C ( 850 @995Mhz @ 1.95vCore) and a 130watt@15v Pelt.

I think it shows that they DO work, and work pretty damn good, there was a considerable amount of heat come'n off the radiadtor the entire time.

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C-ya
Joe - Owner/Editor
www.ProCooling.com
Where the Completely Addicted Come to Cool Off

Somebody set up us the bomb.

? Why use an oil cooler for water ?
that's like asking Henry Ford why use a motor car on a horse track

the idea came about because their wasn't anything available on the market that would suit our requirements.
progress is being made I'd like to add into this area of water cooling.

but hey - first there was oil




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if she arn't wet
she arn't worth it

Joe,
Are your ignorant pronouncements any better reading 1 month later ?

Are you going to appologize to those that you helped sucker into buying a poor performing radiator ?

Or just tell them to limit themselves to 30W non TEC applications ?

Because it WAS perfectly OBVIOUS.
Except of course to sales people for 4in stacked plate oil coolers.
Or to those unable to objectively evaluate products made or sold by their friends.

A "technical" site is only as good as the accuracy of the technical advice proffered.