[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Yes. I'll explain why in the end.

The fact that one side is guilty of war crimes does not make the other innocent. Not much, I can do about violations by the resistance fighters, except work to put them out of a job.

Agreed but we do not condone war crimes. In fact we prosecute our service men and women who commite them. The other side commits war crimes as there normal mode of operation. I fought in Iraq; please don’t presume you know more about what is going on

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I've read that some combatants in Fallujah have "abused" the white flag. I don't mind it as a dirty trick - they're outgunned, so they need to delude the enemy in more ways than he can imagine. They need to fight with greater cowardice than the enemy (Lother5150 dismisses the term, but until he provides a better one, I'll use this). I mind it because it robs non-combatants of the white flag's protection.

FYI the white flag does not mean you surrender. It only means you wish to talk, I am no longer hostile. If you through down your weapon and approach with your hands in plain sight…that is surrender. I agree with you, fainting surrender does rob non-combatants of the ability to remain out of the fight. This is precisely why it is illegal to surrender then start fighting again.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I wouldn't be surprised if some resistance fighters used human shields, to varying degrees. No doubt they think they're defending something, or someone. They might think Marines will desecrate a mosque (by entering it), for example, if they don't use force to defend the building. Some are likely defending their own family members, or think they are. There must be a few among them who in desperation would take a neighbour hostage, if those people are the same as mine.

This is bullshit. They could get the women and children out and stay in fight.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I tried to point out earlier that the resistance fighters believe they will be brutalised and perhaps murdered if captured. You see how that can cause problems for both sides.

Your resistance fighters are Al Qaeda members from surrounding countries.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

A good lawyer pays no regard to ethics. His function is to mark (or argue to) the limits of legal interpretation. Lawyers determined, for example, that intercepting Canadians on flight stopovers, rendering them to states infamous for torture, and pressuring those third party states to extract confessions of Al-Qaeda membership, is not illegal. Lawyers also determined that American interrogators could strip detainees naked, drug them, put them in stress positions, splash them with ice water, employ repeated rectal exams, and so forth - because they determined that unless lasting physical harm is done, or the practice has already been cited, then it's not torture and therefore not illegal. So I'm confident army lawyers are busy enough mapping out what's not illegal.

I agree with you lawyers are only interested in the rule of law. However, I am sure that the rule of law is one of the pillars of civilization. Nevertheless, you were saying I was a war criminal and criminal is a legal term. There for one should use lawyers in order to assure his or her actions don’t constitute a crime.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I wasn't even thinking about rules of engagement. By the "overall operation" being a war crime I meant that 250,000 people have been made refugees in a country with 75% unemployment and violence everywhere. They had to pack up and flee. Their city was ruined. Most of them are now starving or begging. Half of those refugees are children who should be in school right now. As designed, the operation destroyed 250,000 lives. If that isn't plain, then Lothar5150 you must have the most brutal understanding of human life. I think human life means a little more than just whether a person is breathing or not.

Most were being and starving before the offensive. In part, that was due to the insurgents attacking US convoys filled with food and clean water. What you fail to understand is that their situation was not going to get any better as long as the foreign fighters where in their city. Sure, a good chunk of the city was destroyed. Oh well…so was Hamburg and Berlin. They will get a new city and have full employment over the next few months. The money to rebuild the city was on standby before we even started the operation.

Life is brutal, however, if you are as in tuned to Japanese culture as you claim. You know that warriors have a greater appreciation for life than other members of society. Just yesterday, one of my oldest friends, Mohamed, and I were having beers and discussing how lucky we both were to be born in America. We both hoped that the rest of the world could live as free and as well as we do someday.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

OK so you've negated two terms now. This is fun. Shall I keep guessing what the correct term is?

It’s not my job to articulate for you. However, I will correct you if you use the wrong terms.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Both sides engage in propaganda. I realize you trust statements by the US military or pro-war media as the only truth, so we'll just have to build our picture from those alone.

Ok, if we run this great propaganda machine, why do you think the tape of the Marine shooting the insurgent in the mosque is all over the news? We want people to see the truth, even when it not in our best interest or when facts are twisted and used against us. We put up with the latter because of our respect for the former. Don’t you find it interesting that Al Jazzera would not show the tape of Margaret Hassan being shot but did air the tape of the Marine shooting the insurgent at the mosque.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I'll let that stand. The truth of the intent is self evident. Whether or not foreign fighters had violated the neutrality of those institutions, or to what degree, we can't know and probably never will.

We will know this is the 21st Century and I am sure there is evince created by drones and missile cameras. Just give it time. Just as we saw the footage of the gunmen on top of the mosque in An Najaf.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

We share a clearer view of that main hospital on the outskirts of Fallujah, taken early on by US and US led forces. Drawing only from US official statements and pro-war media quoting American forces, we get this: The hospital was surrounded. An ambulance was fired upon (and stopped) as it tried to leave. Loudspeakers were used, telling people in the hospital they'd be shot if they tried to leave. A commando group composed of foreign fighters stormed the building; they handcuffed the people inside, searched the facility. Not one shot was fired. There was little resistance. Apparently the resistance fighters had respected the neutrality of this institution. American forces and embedded journalists entered, and remained in the hospital - they still occupy it. Hospital staff and ambulance crews have not been allowed to leave the hospital, not for any reason. They can't just go home, for example. In short: they're hostages. Wounded civilians or resistance fighters have not arrived at the hospital. A US commander was quoted saying his men are "defending" the hospital. Presumably this means US forces would take up firing positions in the hospital if it came under attack.

What is your point? We don’t want the hospital staff leaving the hospital because there is a battle going on in the streets. It is our responsibility to ensure their safety, as they are clearly non-combatants. They are no more hostages than people who are told they cannot go back to their homes during a natural disaster.

I’m still baffled by the “liberal” view of this war. We go in and remove an undisputedly evil dictator and the “liberal” complain. Some how in your twisted minds the Iraqi’s were living in a benevolent, peaceful and plentiful paradise. Then America stepped in and ruined paradise. What a twisted view of the world you have.

Obviously, people with your view don’t value democracy or freedom. If you did you would be celebrating the fact that we got rid of Saddam (whatever the pretext) and are moving with all deliberate speed to get them to elections. I personally have high hopes for Iraq as a free nation and for the Iraqi people as free people. Finally if I were asked to go free another nation, I would go in a New York Minute. Because I was able to be, part of something greater than myself, which will change the world in a positive way. People like you just complain and do nothing.