[Kobuchi]

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

all that data shows is that people put security at the top of the list. This rational human response.

Yes. That's why the issue of whether or not they want US forces in the country (or a democratic government) can't be addressed cleanly within the framework of that survey. Foremost, as you say, they wish to survive.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

Your full of it Kobuchi, you are the one who sited polls, now that I am hanging you with your own rope you want to invalidate the polls. At least attempt to be intellectually honest.

Sure. I believe polls by their nature take issues out of context. They shouldn't be read at face value. I think we both see that.

Now, I believe that a strong majority of Iraqis today, if asked directly with no conditions attached (uncoerced), if they'd like US forces to leave, would say, "yes". You could argue that meaningless in the absence of other conditions. I'm confident that so long as US forces remain in Iraq there will somehow always be conditions to justify continued occupation. We'll see different causes behind those conditions. I'll blame US interventions, call it a self-fulfilling truth; you'll blame Iraqis or other foreigners, say it just happens. I think that you could eventually take the position that Iraqis didn't really want US intervention, but that this is irrelevant because we have to deal with present realities. I believe that this context of insecurity in Iraq a direct result of US occupation.

For now, you appear to be arguing that Iraqis, all coercion aside, don't really mind US forces in their country. Now your turn to be honest.

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

How many times have you stated we kicked out international observers?

Zero. My words: "Barring international monitors from the states of key interest"

Originally Posted by Lothar5150

you should stick to support via qualified third parties.
Click and Enjoy the Crow

OK, I'll paste from your link then:
"The OSCE observers were able to assess aspects of the pre-election environment and were granted access to polling stations in a number of states, sometimes only in specific counties. The OSCE believes that in order to further enhance transparency and to meet U.S. international commitments, Congress and individual states should consider introducing legal provisions allowing unimpeded access for international observers invited by the U.S. government."