[Lothar5150]

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Yes. That's why the issue of whether or not they want US forces in the country (or a democratic government) can't be addressed cleanly within the framework of that survey. Foremost, as you say, they wish to survive.

Sure. I believe polls by their nature take issues out of context. They shouldn't be read at face value. I think we both see that.

Don’t site anymore poll then. I only used the Gallup Poll because you mentioned a supposed Gallup taken in Iraq. In fact, that poll does not exist. However, the poll I sited does. 13% said that they want American Troops out…hardly a majority

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Now, I believe that a strong majority of Iraqis today, if asked directly with no conditions attached (uncoerced), if they'd like US forces to leave, would say, "yes". You could argue that meaningless in the absence of other conditions. I'm confident that so long as US forces remain in Iraq there will somehow always be conditions to justify continued occupation. We'll see different causes behind those conditions.

Your belief holds no weight you need at least two premises sighting some qualified evidence. Have you been to Iraq, had tea and talked with Iraqis. I did think so. On the other hand, I have. I can make a statement about my belief and have some credibility. Further, my opinion backed by a reputable third party…Gallup.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

I'll blame US interventions, call it a self-fulfilling truth; you'll blame Iraqis or other foreigners, say it just happens. I think that you could eventually take the position that Iraqis didn't really want US intervention, but that this is irrelevant because we have to deal with present realities. I believe that this context of insecurity in Iraq a direct result of US occupation.

You can blame the security situation on the US. After all, it is our legal and moral obligation as an occupying force. However, the alternative was total security and with a totalitarian state. Which practiced state sponsored torture, murder and rape in order to insure stability. Say what you will, Iraq is about to become the first Arab Democracy thanks to the USA and allies.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

For now, you appear to be arguing that Iraqis, all coercion aside, don't really mind US forces in their country. Now your turn to be honest.

No that is not what I am arguing. The Iraqis would prefer not to have a foreign power occupying them. Just as any country would not want to be occupied. However, they will tolerate occupation in order to insure that civil war does not erupt or anarchy to insure.

Originally Posted by Kobuchi

Zero. My words: "Barring international monitors from the states of key interest”

Kobuchi how about the first paragraph in the article. At no time did the OSCE believe the elections were rigged in any way.

WASHINGTON, D.C., 4 November 2004 - The 2 November elections in the United States were conducted in an environment that reflects a longstanding democratic tradition, including institutions governed by rule of law, free and professional media and an active civil society involved in all aspects of the election process.