Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lothar5150
9mmCensor
Here is a list of countries that are now democratic as a result of US direct military action or diplomatic pressure.
France
Belgium
Norway
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Austria
Luxemburg
Italy
Greece
South Africa
Venezuela
El Salvador
Honduras
Nicaragua
Chile
Iraq
Afghanistan
Poland
Japan
Philippines
South Korea
Taiwan
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Sweden? I'm from Sweden myself, and rather interested in history. According to every single history book I've ever read the USA has never been a part in any of Swedens foreign disputes...
Sweden has been officially neutral since 1812 (a law declared by the king). One that still applys to this day.
We were one of the first countrys in the world to adopt democracy as form of government.
Louis de Geer became our first Prime Minister in 1876.
Last war we were in was a petty little argument over weither or not Norway should belong to us or not. All in accordance with a peace-agreement signed with Denmark (Norway belonged to Denmark back then).
Having argued about it for a couple of months, without a single shot ever fired, we decided to call it a day and left the norwegians to their own devices. This was in 1814.
We've enjoyed the pleasure of almost 200 years of uninterrupted peace, largly due to our foreign policy. At no time, except for a brief period during WW II, have we been at risk of being invaded. That time by nazi Germany.. owever, that invasion never came - and it was NOT becuase of the USA, it was due to a couple of things:
1. Despite, or should I say because of, our neutral stance we let Germany transport military equipment over our borders untill we closed them in 1943. We also supplied the English with ballbearings (Swedish invention by the way, "SKF" ring a bell?)
2. We had nothing Germany wanted.
3. Rumor has it that Eva Braun, Hitlers mistress (and later on wife) had distant family from Sweden, cousins or whatever.
For whatever reason - the invasion never came. And by late 1943, early 1944 it was game over for Germany anyway - largly due to having to fight a 2 front war.
Anyway, now that we've cleared up that misconception.. on we go..
Germany.
Germany is not a democracy due to US influences, in fact - half the country suffered under a Soviet based communistic regiem for almost half a century largly due to actions taken by the US. The democratic Germany we know today owes it's " democratic freedom" mainly becuase of two things, the fall of the Soviet Union and the people of East Germany's individual thirst for freedom.
Japan:
Japan is a democracy, not due to US action, but a fortunate result of US re-action.
Had they never attacked the US at pearl harbour - chances are they'd still have imperial rule. In all honesty and fairnes, the US simply can not take credit for the end result. Even though it's nice to tell yourself you can, or should, or whatever..
South Africa
Their way to freedom is a result of miltiple nations being involved in changing apartheid into democracy. They had thief first democratic election in 1994 after more than 20 years of struggle. Nothing much changed untill the west opened thier eyes - or perhaps "wallet" is a more suitable word - in the late 80's, as the story of Nelson Mandela and ANC made it's way to our television sets.
If ANYONE person, nation or organisation should take credit for the liberation of black people ,and equal rights for all, throughout South Africa - it should be Nelson Mandela. Not the US or anyone else.
South Korea and Taiwan are... well... let's say "debatable". But to say that Sweden, Germany, Japan or South Africa have democracy becuase of the US is just plain ridiculous.
Anyway,.. Now that we'r done that that - on we go...
On the subject at hand...
Since the US model of democracy differs enormously from ours it's hard to have a democracy vs. non-democracy discussion with an american. For your enlightenment - we have a milti party democracy. No party has gotten 50% or more of votes for decades now, so all the partys pretty much have to compromise to get any work done.
This is far from perfect as it takes ages for the partys to come to an agreement on how to vote in the "Riksdag" to get a bill passed (our equivallent to the american Senate).
On the good side every body has thier say, and atleast have a decent chance of getting will. 'Compromise' being the word of the day.
And I'm rambling... What I was about to say is this:
If our nations history has taught us anything it is that democracy or any other form of government for that matter can only come from one direction - and that is from the people up. They (WE) must want it. Simply storming in with guns and shoot anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't a solution.
Sweden used to be like that, we were a super power once, most of northern Europe including large parts of what today is Russia used to belong to us. Heck, we were 2 weeks away from putting a swede on the Tzars throne in Moscow but he was assassinated on the way there...
We did quite well for ourselfs, for about 150 years or so untill we've reached a point where we had alienated most of our neighbours or old allies, spent all our money on the military, large parts of the poulation starved and the costs of war had brought us to the brink of bankrupcy.
So we were forced to give it all up and withdraw from Denmark, Norway, Poland, Germany, Russia and Finland (which by the way still has swedish as official language).
Granted our wars was faught for greed, pride, land, wealth and influence - but the lesson is the same...
War (or call it 'disarmarment by force' if you like) isn't the solution.
Democracy must come from inside. And the international community can help by providing mediation or with peace keeping forces if need be. But we simply can not let ourselfs sink so low or become so brainwashed that we believe that the way to freedom can come from the barrel of a gun, in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter. And by the looks of it, Iran is next on Bush's list.
With a war-monger like that at the wheel - I'm honestly worried he's gonna start something he can't stop. If the US goes into Iran, we might very well be facing the next big one... the one ending with III.
Anyway.. Have a nice day
