[UNDERBYTE]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

Pre-rant: None of this is specifically directed at you Jaydee (ie i dont think any of this is your fault) so dont take it that way If i use 'your', its just because its easier in the context, just meaning 'USA'.



Agreed, BUT - what gives America the 'world police' rights? Heres a nice statistic for you -

"In a single day, U.S. cluster-munition attacks in Hilla on March 31 killed at least 33 civilians and injured 109. A hospital director in the southern Iraqi city told Human Rights Watch that cluster munitions caused 90 percent of the civilian injuries that his hospital treated during the war. Human Rights Watch obtained hospital records from Hilla, Najaf and Nasariya indicating 2,279 civilian casualties in March and April, including 678 dead and 1,601 injured."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/12/12/iraq6582.htm

"A more conservative figure comes from Iraqbodycount.net, a British Web site that compiles media reports on Iraqi civilian deaths. Based on such reporting, the site says there have been a minimum of 12,778 civilian deaths in Iraq and a maximum of 14,820."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep21.html

12,000 civilian deaths Jaydee. TWELVE THOUSAND.

Kinda makes the world trade centre look pretty average in comparison, yeah? Makes a terrorist attack look almost justified, doesnt it? How is the US govt/army any different to terrorists, when the end result is worse than what the terrorists did?! In your own words, its 'chicken shit'. No two ways about it.

Then, you add in the damage done to MANY buildings, farmland, homes; the general occupication would destroy many things, along with trade (touched on in the other delphi thread). And thats just the gulf war man, what about korea? vietnam? the cold war? all the other conflicts? Id like to know specifically how many innocents the US has killed since WW2.... To be honest, im disgusted with the rest of the world (specifically the UK) for backing it as well. There must be some mighty fine money passing hands somewhere, and ill bet its stained by crude.



I dont pretend to understand all of the dynamics of the US, but one thing is clear to the rest of the world. Stop trying to clean up the rest of the world when theres just as much shit in your backyard that needs tending to. Drop 5% of the military budget, and I wonder how many people would be taken off the streets, I wonder how many people would be given health care so they can actually become functioning parts of society.

Not doing anything about these people is just passive genocide, in my opinion, and to have the GAUL to occupy other countries because 'what they're doing is wrong' when theres so much ****ing shit in their own country is just laughably hypocritical.

How does this relate to the thread topic? Censorship, Media and Statistics. If your average American thinks that their boys in uniform are all doing the right thing over there, but are unaware they they are killing many more innocents than terrorism does, but yet they cannot stand up against their govt and can be sued/questioned/investigated/whatever pretty much through the patriot act (that was a good act/bill to pass...) for insinuating anything against their govt, how is that so far removed from dictatorship?

'he said something against saddamn, cut off his head',
'he said something against bush - investigate him and his family, if you find anything, 'deal with him' or make him a media scapegoat...'

Seems that people are getting more and more afraid to speak their mind, and its sad. Censor everything, and eventually noone knows whats bullshit and whats not any more...

edited profusely for ease of reading

In Defense of the US -

Iraqi's Lived in terror of of torture,rape or death. Mass graves with over 200,000 dead have accounted for, Saddam gassed thousands of Kurds, murdered Shittes, had a prison for childern etc. Saddam had Video recorded torture for his own enjoyment.

Now for me the WMD is secondary, maybe just an excuse to go in and change things, it is not important.. The real MORAL issue is from a humane point of view is that if you are witness to such atrocities and have a capability and opportunity to stop it, what do you do? Get the UN to pass a #15 sanction/ resolution?

The US and others through diplomacy has tried for years to reform the middle east for the betterment of it 's people and nothing has gotten better only worse. Military action on the US part was a moral action, the middle east has some pretty nasty Social dynamics working against it and is at a tipping point and unless brought under control was likely to bring the whole region into chaos.

Now you have Syria out of Lebanon, The Isralies out of Gaza and Qaddafi renouncing terrorisim and abandoning his Nuke program and a Stalin (Bathists were socialists modeled after Hitler's Nazii party) wannabe Saddam removed from power, and a murding terrorist regime removed from Afganistan. Looks like a improvement in my book.

U.S. Meddling world police? What gives us the right? Because we can, because we have the ability, because we have the will. because we have the courage to stand alone and do what we see as right. It is called leadership and until somebody else steps up to the plate we will continue to do it our way. Too bad for those who dissagree they are welcome to challenge us at any time


Side note to Liberals. - Liberal repressive regimes killed 78 million people in the last hundred years. Hitler Mao, Mussolini, Saddam, Pol Pot, Peron, Batista all were leftitists. Almost all Military dictatorships are/were left wing and you would be hard pressed to find one that is conservative rightwing. If you see political repression mostly you will find a socialist at it's root.

As far as censorship, the forums are like the wild west, a kind of free for all. Resllers, manufacturers both pumping and bashing products. Sometimes an inept analysis or understanding of product application by indiduals causes angst. I could see where manufacturers would get rightfully upset, However I think it generally reaches a healthy equalibrium or gets sorted out in the wash.