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bobo5195 · 11-07-2005, 03:46 PM

Best analogue i think is the British race riots of the 70's/80's.

To assume that there is much "french" government in some of the immigrant ghettos is quite false they are pretty much a law to themselves, with the local community running things. Integration is minimal. There is a similar situation across the world (to assume that British Asians do not do a similar thing is naïve except there are less of them than in france there are still areas of complete segregation, im sure there are many examples in the USA given that its society is far more segregated and immobile than France. My mum was aghast at how divided the USA was when she was over there in the 70s). There were still are race riots in Britain on a much smaller scale (recently a near “ruck” in Birmingham between Asians and Blacks, on going sporadic riots in Leicester in recent year), similarly in France there are some. Katrina did show that order can break down relatively easily in most societies although the violence was overblown by TV (though the conditions experienced by many people were not) and to European eyes I have to say that widespread ownership of guns in the USA didn’t help matters.

I personally believe the story that there is some mastermind to this but could well be wrong.

In all likelihood its from a culmination of French domestic policy and sluggish growth. the French have always been proud of "frenchness" and the strict separation of the church and the state (far more so than the US, which is relatively lax in that respect when compared to most European Countries). While they are intolerant of immigrants its hardly fair to that they are more so than a lot of other places and in comparison to some of the stories coming from the USA after 9 11. Most EU countries are experiencing some kind of backlash. France has a notable rise in the more fascist extremes in recent years similarly with Jorge Hider (sp?) in Austria, Pim Fortune’s former party in Netherlands. The BNP is having some of its best time in the UK for decades. You can partly point to the crack down of the Muslim community after Americas backlash after 9 11 but certainly economics plays a part. The war on terror (a phrase I hate and a gross simplification of events) has been causing division all over the west and the pictures coming out of Iraq hardly help. When channels like al jezera (which I thought was actually quite good in comparison to Fox at least, although American news in general is not very good) show that there is divide going on and that it is increasing.

Sarkozi is thought of as the French Thatcher (which is why I make the link to the British race riots) reductions in state aid due to economic conditions in france are hitting the poor first, very much like Thatcheright policies started biting in the UK. In a similar way the response in immigrant enclaves is much the same, to riot as there’s pretty much nothing else they can do. The way the continental Europeans have done things has always been different to the Anglo Saxon way of thinking. Indeed there are very many people who think the French way is far better than things the USA ( I do to a point, better healthcare, generally fairer society, better sense of community). Productivity per hour is very good in France and while large unionised workforces are inefficient they do keep working hours low which improves standards of living (in that you are not shattered from work). To assume that nothing was going to happen after trying to Sarkozi trying to change centuries of French cultural practice was always a leap of faith.

11-07-2005, 03:46 PM	#10
bobo5195 Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: uk Posts: 400	Best analogue i think is the British race riots of the 70's/80's. To assume that there is much "french" government in some of the immigrant ghettos is quite false they are pretty much a law to themselves, with the local community running things. Integration is minimal. There is a similar situation across the world (to assume that British Asians do not do a similar thing is naïve except there are less of them than in france there are still areas of complete segregation, im sure there are many examples in the USA given that its society is far more segregated and immobile than France. My mum was aghast at how divided the USA was when she was over there in the 70s). There were still are race riots in Britain on a much smaller scale (recently a near “ruck” in Birmingham between Asians and Blacks, on going sporadic riots in Leicester in recent year), similarly in France there are some. Katrina did show that order can break down relatively easily in most societies although the violence was overblown by TV (though the conditions experienced by many people were not) and to European eyes I have to say that widespread ownership of guns in the USA didn’t help matters. I personally believe the story that there is some mastermind to this but could well be wrong. In all likelihood its from a culmination of French domestic policy and sluggish growth. the French have always been proud of "frenchness" and the strict separation of the church and the state (far more so than the US, which is relatively lax in that respect when compared to most European Countries). While they are intolerant of immigrants its hardly fair to that they are more so than a lot of other places and in comparison to some of the stories coming from the USA after 9 11. Most EU countries are experiencing some kind of backlash. France has a notable rise in the more fascist extremes in recent years similarly with Jorge Hider (sp?) in Austria, Pim Fortune’s former party in Netherlands. The BNP is having some of its best time in the UK for decades. You can partly point to the crack down of the Muslim community after Americas backlash after 9 11 but certainly economics plays a part. The war on terror (a phrase I hate and a gross simplification of events) has been causing division all over the west and the pictures coming out of Iraq hardly help. When channels like al jezera (which I thought was actually quite good in comparison to Fox at least, although American news in general is not very good) show that there is divide going on and that it is increasing. Sarkozi is thought of as the French Thatcher (which is why I make the link to the British race riots) reductions in state aid due to economic conditions in france are hitting the poor first, very much like Thatcheright policies started biting in the UK. In a similar way the response in immigrant enclaves is much the same, to riot as there’s pretty much nothing else they can do. The way the continental Europeans have done things has always been different to the Anglo Saxon way of thinking. Indeed there are very many people who think the French way is far better than things the USA ( I do to a point, better healthcare, generally fairer society, better sense of community). Productivity per hour is very good in France and while large unionised workforces are inefficient they do keep working hours low which improves standards of living (in that you are not shattered from work). To assume that nothing was going to happen after trying to Sarkozi trying to change centuries of French cultural practice was always a leap of faith.