[gmat]

Originally posted by bigben2k
I think it's good to question the facts that have been presented though, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

I hope so It does not suit me to follow conspirationist schemes. I do not believe in aliens on earth (but i'm quite sure life exists on other planets), and i dont believe in the general media. During Gulf war i learned to take information with a grain of salt... Especially when said information comes from people with an agenda. In this very case i would have never noticed though, wouldnt have been all the noise (or the lack of) around it on Internet and in the media.

a fighter plane running into these would loose part of a wing.

I'm all for that. But where are the wings, then ???
Besides, recent "experiences" of modern aircraft cutting poles / steel cables / trees show that the wings / tail hold well.

As for the width of the hole, it's possible that once the plane made contact with the building, it entered into a spin, going through the building sideways, making the entry hole much narrower.

You didnt take a look at the 3D simulation site did you.. There is *really* a size problem with a 757 coming at a 50� angle. And what about the height of the hole....?

The plane would desintegrate, regardless of wether it hit the building at 200, 400 or 600 mph. I'm sure that they found some aircraft parts, but in all the attacks, I only remember seeing one landing gear from the WTC.

And lots of ppl pointed at plane parts littering the streets of NY, at a good distance from the crash.
For the pentagon the only officially endorsed parts were:
- the black box, for which one has to trust the FBI (it was "found" 3 days later...)
- a light (!! it didnt get smashed or disintegrated...)
and thats it. Not much eh ?
Of course, the light itself proves it was a AA 757... lets be serious.
And "disintegrate" is ok, but why so little damage at first hand ? Again the early photos show a mild fire on lower floors. Man, disintegrating a 757 should not go unnoticed like this...

The tail might survive a normal crash, but this wasn't a normal crash: the plane was used as a missile. (...) The tail probably never penetrated the building, and melted in the fire.

If you look closely at the first photos taken by marines, you should see the tail burning (i dont, please outline it...). And 80 tons of melted metal dont go unnoticed... If not, it should have entered the building. And i dont see how, the 2nd floor was intact. Besides, if the tail entered, where is the fuselage ? It should have damaged the 2nd ring.. on early aerial shots you see very small damage (a man-sized hole) on the 2nd ring.
On the other hand, look at WTC crashes. Planes were used as missiles as well, on sturdy concrete+steel walls. In both cases the tail was still sticking out, and wings smashed the wall quite hard (and they were coming at an angle as well...).
Look at any other crash (on solid ground...) in history. You always find a good part of the tail.
Why ? Not because it's sturdier. Because the rest of the plane (fuselage, wings, etc.) take most of the kinetic energy under the impact, by deforming.
Obviously this cant apply to smaller planes which get quickly squished into a pulp. But every boeing-sized plane that crashed showed common patterns. Wingtips and apexes are harder parts and usually survive. Some parts of the fuselage usually do as well, depends of the model. And the tail always does (unless it was the part which was hit in the first place...). Thats why they put the black box there, btw.
Titanium engine parts always take the worst part, but yes one can usually find em laying around...

As for the witness thing, the Pentagon personel was probably told to keep quiet, as one would expect when a military installation has been hit, especially in the light of the nature of the attack. Any witnesses would have to happen to be there, and since the Pentagon isn't of any touristic interest, again, I'm not surprised that there are only a few witnesses.

You said in your first post: "You know, the funny thing is that before all this, just about anyone was able to enter the Pentagon, and was free to walk around."
Indeed everytime i see pictures from there, lots of ppl walk around, theres a highway just in front of it with *heavy* traffic, and lots of other buildings around with probably thousands of ppl who work there. It's not Fort Knox... It's not in deep country either, it's Washington ! Not a small village...
For the pentagon personel to keep quiet, i would *perfectly* understand this. I would *perfectly* understand they would prevent any other witness from talking. The weird fact is, the US Army itself published information that doesnt support, or even contradict the official statement.

This is interesting. What else have you got?

Lots of things, but at home. i'll get back here in a few.
IIRC:
- a bad quality video footage (monitoring cam) showing something small, slim, low and fast slamming the wall
- series of photos (as always, from the military) showing objects (such as a SUV) that "move" away from the crash site between each shot. weird enough on the first shots they're in pretty good condition...
- what happened to the actual hijacked AA 757 after it disappeared from control towers screens, 35mn before the impact (no one knows...)
- theories of ppl from around the world, including citizens of the USA
- my personal guesses

Nexxo: knowing the truth ?