An introduction and an asking for recommendations

[kronchev]

Hello, I'm new here. I know Giblet Plus!, he posts at hardforums, seem to know he stuff better than most people there. Since he is the only member who seems to know what hes talking about, and he came from here, I have come here for my newfound addiction to watercooling . Yes, I finally ditched fans and built my WC system. Problem is, now I'm addicted! For fun I pick out systems, try to get the cheapest good system, or the most expensive crappy system (short of EXOS of course), stuff like that. Since this is my first time WCing please pardon any stupid mistakes I may make. For instance I paid $35 for my Hydor L20...a day later GP pointed me to marine depot where much better pumps are half that price...live and learn?

Anyway here's my question:

I haven't had this thing installed and running for 48 hours and already I'm planning my upgrade path.

This is what I have so far:

Dangerden Maze 4
Hydor L20
Heatercore
Some crappy Panaflo fan
Filled by t-line

Now there are 3 possible things that I see to upgrade. One is the pump, this thing barely pushes anything when compared to other pumps.

The second possible upgrade is the fan. Right now I am using the only 120 fan I have. It sucks a LOT, pushes barely nothing, its huge, and its black, and since I have the fan externally mounted on my case (rad is inside), its a big black fan on a silver case. I was looking at the Evercool Chrome 120mm Fan at DD, its the cheapest fan they have but its also the best CFM:noise ratio, plus its also silver which would look better with the case.

The third and final possible upgrade is the CPU block. The maze4 is good but the RBX/whitewater (Cascade is right now out of my price range, period) are said to be better. Problem is I dont have a huge pump that could support those, and theyre the most expensive possible upgrade...I dont think that the few degress I
'd get would justify such a huge expense.


Right now my setup is 100-102 (37-39 C) full load, 93 (33 C) idle. This is with ambient of 75 (24 C). I just am wondering which upgrade would give the best drops in temps. Ideally I'd like 93 (33 C) load and < 86 (30 C) idle, but I realize that may require much more than those upgrades.

Also, a new rad is pretty much impossible. right now I have it crammed in the top of my PC601 with a hole. Its very, very tight as it is. I dont think anything else would fit. A dual 120 would be very, very questionable. Besides, ive seen much lower temps with this heatercore; wheres MY super low temps?

Thanks for any thoughts.

[msv]

Originally Posted by kronchev

Right now my setup is 100-102 (37-39 C) full load, 93 (33 C) idle. This is with ambient of 75 (24 C). I just am wondering which upgrade would give the best drops in temps. Ideally I'd like 93 (33 C) load and < 86 (30 C) idle, but I realize that may require much more than those upgrades.

Welcome!
Needed info: What CPU do You have, and how much is it overclocked?
37-39 C might be really good temps if Your CPU is clocked beyond the horizon, but it might just as well be pretty much a so-so if it runs at default speed.

regards
Mikael S.

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by msv

Welcome!
Needed info: What CPU do You have, and how much is it overclocked?
37-39 C might be really good temps if Your CPU is clocked beyond the horizon, but it might just as well be pretty much a so-so if it runs at default speed.

regards
Mikael S.

you know, I thought I forgot something

it's a 2400+-Mobile (1.8 default) clocked at 2.4 ghz, 1.80 volts. I can probabily get to 2.5 ghz with 1.85 volts, but I havent tried.

[Cyco-Dude]

i wouldnt cry over those temps, to be honest. if it were me id just leave it as-is (maybe change the fan if asthetics are important).

one way to better the temps is to use a more powerful fan / get cooler air through the rad. is the fan pushing or pulling? i guess you have the fan blowing air through the rad...are you using a shroud? if not is the room to squeeze some spacers between the rad and top panel? it would probably look worse if you had a shroud and fan sitting on top of the panel. maybe a shroud and 25mm thick fan would be acceptable? make a simple box shroud outta lucite, get some LEDs........ANYhow

as far as the pump is concerned, unless youre planning on adding more blocks the L20 should be fine. is it worth your time / money to get a different pump where it may or may not appreciably lower the CPU temp?

[kronchev]

cyco: I clocked it up to 2.5 ghz at 1.825 volts last night. Its still going after a night of prime so it seems stable. right now its 107 (42 C) load with 82 (28) ambient. That does seem high as I was getting around that with air cooling...although my overclock was only 2.37 at 1.70 volts (old chip did low ghz at low temps, but couldnt get higher).

The fan is pulling through the rad. Of course I know about dead zone The thing is, the air coming out the fan only feels a few deg hotter than the ambient. if I feel the tubes theyre noticibly warmer than ambient.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by kronchev

cyco: I clocked it up to 2.5 ghz at 1.825 volts last night. Its still going after a night of prime so it seems stable. right now its 107 (42 C) load with 82 (28) ambient. That does seem high as I was getting around that with air cooling...although my overclock was only 2.37 at 1.70 volts (old chip did low ghz at low temps, but couldnt get higher).

The fan is pulling through the rad. Of course I know about dead zone The thing is, the air coming out the fan only feels a few deg hotter than the ambient. if I feel the tubes theyre noticibly warmer than ambient.

given that ypu're in the states, i suspect that it's worth replacing your pump with a mag3... $40 from here
http://www.reefgeek.com/products/cat...ps/103755.html

what heatercore is it? is it possible to put a shroud between the top and the core? it's normal for the rad to only add a degree or so to the air coing through it...

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

given that ypu're in the states, i suspect that it's worth replacing your pump with a mag3... $40 from here
http://www.reefgeek.com/products/cat...ps/103755.html

what heatercore is it? is it possible to put a shroud between the top and the core? it's normal for the rad to only add a degree or so to the air coing through it...

When I do replace the pump, itll probabily be a Maxi-Jet Powerhead 1200 (295 GPH) for $18.95 from Marine Depot. Ill think about the Danner though, Ive heard good things about them.

Its the heatercore DangerDen sells. I think its the same as the chevette. Right now its pressed against the blowhole in my case so the fan is sucking through it. Problems is my room is so damn warm

[feathers]

"Right now my setup is 100-102 (37-39 C) full load, 93 (33 C) idle. "

Why don't u make your water system complete by adding a peltier or two?

Water is great at removing heat but water only really performs with a peltier!

Intel P4 3ghz 800 HT overclocked to 3.5ghz with 900 mhz FSB. The CPU is newly installed and so I'm not overclocking by much at the moment. The speed will be increased over the next few weeks. Temps are: between 4 and 8 celsius when running p2p software and doing other normal windows tasks. Running the latest 3d games will take the CPU up to 14 celsius. If the CPU is pushed to the max with a CPU benchmarking program it will reach 22 celsius.

No condensation problems of course since peltiers are very easy to insulate.

[pHaestus]

Temperatures look pretty good to me. I assume that the mobile Barton puts out as much heat as the TBredB I test with once you give it 1.85V, so those temps seem completely reasonable. I wouldn't bother upgrading the L20 personally unless you decide to watercool GPU/nb as well. The L20 doesn't have a large amount of head, but it's quiet and small. Your Maze4 isn't the best waterblock around but it is low resistance. You may well run into a situation where you upgade CPU block and then have to upgrade pump and then need more rad ad infineum.

I would suggest that you post a picture of your cooling loop. We can then find any plumbing issues that might keep you from getting the most out of your system. Then I'd suggest trying out reversing the fan on your radiator to get fresh outside air into the rad. If that makes a big difference then maybe you could fashion some kind of duct from the front 5.25" bays to the heatercore so it gets outside air?

BTW welcome to the Pro/Forums

[kronchev]

Ph: thats what I was thinking. I know that the better blocks need a pretty large pump to work well. going back to the regret-i-paid-too-much thing, for the price I did pay, I couldve gotten a WW and a >300 GPH pump. Oh well. I like this so far, its good as I'm learning what the hell to do



/edit: yes thats a battery in the T-line. Its all I could find that'd fit. Its wrapped in tape to prevent corrosion

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by kronchev

When I do replace the pump, itll probabily be a Maxi-Jet Powerhead 1200 (295 GPH) for $18.95 from Marine Depot. Ill think about the Danner though, Ive heard good things about them.

Its the heatercore DangerDen sells. I think its the same as the chevette. Right now its pressed against the blowhole in my case so the fan is sucking through it. Problems is my room is so damn warm

that has only 1.74m of head - it's not much better than your existing pump.... certainly not enough to justify buying it to replace it imho.
edit:
iiuc that'd mean a lot of the rad doesn't get any airflow at all, since the core is quite a bit bigger than a fan...

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Temperatures look pretty good to me. I assume that the mobile Barton puts out as much heat as the TBredB I test with once you give it 1.85V, so those temps seem completely reasonable. I wouldn't bother upgrading the L20 personally unless you decide to watercool GPU/nb as well. The L20 doesn't have a large amount of head, but it's quiet and small. Your Maze4 isn't the best waterblock around but it is low resistance. You may well run into a situation where you upgade CPU block and then have to upgrade pump and then need more rad ad infineum.

I would suggest that you post a picture of your cooling loop. We can then find any plumbing issues that might keep you from getting the most out of your system. Then I'd suggest trying out reversing the fan on your radiator to get fresh outside air into the rad. If that makes a big difference then maybe you could fashion some kind of duct from the front 5.25" bays to the heatercore so it gets outside air?

BTW welcome to the Pro/Forums

http://www.benchtest.com/calc.html
gives 97.55W for a 2400+ at 2.4ghz 1.8V
104.46 at 2.5ghz 1.825V

phaestus i'd have thought that since the maze4 responds so well to higher flow (as your test revealed) a mag3 was a good bet given how cheap it is...

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by kronchev

Ph: thats what I was thinking. I know that the better blocks need a pretty large pump to work well. going back to the regret-i-paid-too-much thing, for the price I did pay, I couldve gotten a WW and a >300 GPH pump. Oh well. I like this so far, its good as I'm learning what the hell to do



/edit: yes thats a battery in the T-line. Its all I could find that'd fit. Its wrapped in tape to prevent corrosion

hmm - just a thought but as the core is by far the highest part of the loop (and the "T" line looks pretty short) is it possible there's some air trapped in the core? that pump doesn't have much "oomph" to blow it out...

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

hmm - just a thought but as the core is by far the highest part of the loop (and the "T" line looks pretty short) is it possible there's some air trapped in the core? that pump doesn't have much "oomph" to blow it out...

thats a good point. i did rotate it around to try to get the bubbles out but I might have missed a few. now that its completly secured Ill jiggle it more

paul: thanks for that site. i think the calcs are wrong however as I have a mobile processor thats stock 1.45 volts. Ill try to find the wattage and calculate it myself.

/edit: internet says 45 watts.

[kronchev]

2.5 ghz, 114 full load...meh. I really want it to be much better.


/edit: two things I just noticed. one, the fan really doesnt pull jack shit. i put my hand under the rad and couldnt feel ANY airflow. coming out of it is pretty weak too, but its also pretty warm, so it is pulling from the rad. two, I think that both the dual heatercore at dangerden and a 79 bonneville core will fit in my case; ones 11 inches long, others 9.5, both are 6.5 wide (narrower than the current one I believe). the bonneville is smaller and $10 cheaper, but it might be too small for 2 120's (not that i couldnt put em together anyway). right now I think im just going to get the one evercool fan and then see how that goes. I shook the case around and dislodged a few bubbles and my temps dropped 5 degs, i know its not that the side of my case is off as the ambient has stayed the same. wish me luck in my eternal quest

/edit: yep its definatly the fan and the cooling in general. i took off the 2 front faceplates (rad is in the top of the 5 1/4 bays, CD drive is in bottom, put a 80 just sitting there blowing in, and an angled piece of cardboard in the back of the bays angled up towards the rad. right now im going at 102 full load, with the side on. I definatly need to figure out how to mount a few fans right there blowing in, and make it look nice and such. the lian li plates are too expensive to just **** with like that however...

[pHaestus]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

http://www.benchtest.com/calc.html
gives 97.55W for a 2400+ at 2.4ghz 1.8V

Based on my own testing (measuring how much water temps increase across the CPU block to estimate W) the benchtest numbers are way too high.

phaestus i'd have thought that since the maze4 responds so well to higher flow (as your test revealed) a mag3 was a good bet given how cheap it is...

The loop is plumbed very well (I have no suggestions about layout) and so I'd guess he's getting ~1.5-1.75GPM out of his current system. You could raise flow rates up with the Mag3 sure but you'll also dump considerably more heat into the loop and/or the case and you'll take up more space and probably increase vibrational noise as well. The radiator's fan seems to be the limiting factor and so adding pump heat may make things worse not better.

You REALLY need to figure out a way to shroud that heatercore somewhat and get air through the whole thing. I'd do something simple like getting some long threaded rods at the home improvement store, mounting the fan onto the top of case with them , leave 2-3" of dead space for a cardboard shroud, and then mount the heatercore onto those threaded rods with wingnuts. Cut to size. The Lian Li should still hide the cardboard and heatercore.

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Based on my own testing (measuring how much water temps increase across the CPU block to estimate W) the benchtest numbers are way too high.

you're probably right....
how is that going btw

Originally Posted by pHaestus

The loop is plumbed very well (I have no suggestions about layout) and so I'd guess he's getting ~1.5-1.75GPM out of his current system. You could raise flow rates up with the Mag3 sure but you'll also dump considerably more heat into the loop and/or the case and you'll take up more space and probably increase vibrational noise as well. The radiator's fan seems to be the limiting factor and so adding pump heat may make things worse not better.

well at least i'm in good company recommending a mag3 for a maze4
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sho...1&page=1&pp=25

in the light of what he has since posted re the airflow through the rad that should definitely be the first priority though...

[kronchev]

i went to compusa and almost dumped $20 for their Al 120 mm fan that supposidly does 80 CFM @ 2000 RPM. ALMOST. I caught myself and decided that a namevbrand (even if its evercool) would be much better.

Also I have bought a brass barb and valve that will be replacing my battery.

/edit: wow I didnt realize how heavy that valve unit is...its tipping pretty crazy. I zip tied it in place and it seems secure now...I'm just worried about it banging into my vid card and side of the case.

[iggy]

if you mount the pump this way youd give it a little less work to do
i dunno if it makes much difference if it the layout goes pump - block - rad in the case of one block?

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by iggy

if you mount the pump this way youd give it a little less work to do
i dunno if it makes much difference if it the layout goes pump - block - rad in the case of one block?

love the chop

I dont want to do anything that really makes the WC stand out (ok the coloring does but thats besides the point ). Ill keep that in mind however...I was thinking about that when I first was planning the whole thing but I decided the pump was too tall...

[iggy]

you can barely see mine less is more stylee

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by iggy

you can barely see mine less is more stylee

true. but you dont have the limited space for the pump do you? if I didnt have a CD drive (please dont tempt me ) I could fit it, and if the rad wasnt there (not an option) I could fit it. Ah well, ill think of something im sure

thanks for the idea tho

[iggy]

ah, didnt realise there was still stuff to be installed, my mistake ;p

[kronchev]

Originally Posted by iggy

ah, didnt realise there was still stuff to be installed, my mistake ;p

eh? everythings in right now. the cd drive is really short so you dont see it. its there however