No competition, why only HWlabs?

[Razor6]

Why aren't there more companies making flat tube radiators sized for standard cooling fans? It is obvious that these types of radiators are cheap to make, mine which has an area greater than a BIX2 cost me $16 where a BIX2 is almost $100. Granted they put proper barbs on and have them painted but that wouldn't make them 5 times the price. Who makes the radiators for HWlabs, or do they make them themselves? Will we ever see reasonable prices? It seems that a competitor could come in and undercut HWlabs prices and gain a lot of market share. :shrug:

[AngryAlpaca]

Thermochill.

Heater core style radiators (radiators in general, I think) cost a LOT to make small quantities, as one must set up solder machine or what not. The tooling is usually a one time, very high cost thing, so that's the main cost for small quantities of these radiators. If you're making 100,000, let's say, like a car company, the tooling cost is relatively small per item, and the raw materials and actual work probably doesn't take long. I think. This is all inferred from what I've seen and heard and sounds about right.

[BalefireX]

I've always wondered what the maximum dissipation (in terms of watts with a 10C air/water differential) of a typical dual fan Heatercore would be, compared to something like a Thermochill HE 120.3 or a BIX2. Heard lots of conjecture on the subject, but no real answers.

[pHaestus]

the market is limited(on THIS forum anyway) for $60-100 radiators when the Fedco heatercores are so cheap. I talked briefly with HWLabs about making a single pass Black Ice 2 Pro but honestly no one here would buy one and so it's hard to justify...

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

the market is limited(on THIS forum anyway) for $60-100 radiators when the Fedco heatercores are so cheap. I talked briefly with HWLabs about making a single pass Black Ice 2 Pro but honestly no one here would buy one and so it's hard to justify...

This was where my question was aimed - does anyone have numbers to show if there is an advantage to one or the other (automotive vs. PC heatercores)?

[BillA]

Originally Posted by BalefireX

This was where my question was aimed - does anyone have numbers to show if there is an advantage to one or the other (automotive vs. PC heatercores)?

you do not know the answer ?
(and in far greater detail than you might imagine, 3 mos and still going)
but how do you convince me to release data which will be used by the competition against me ?

do not suggest that the sales 'support' here is of consequence, it is not as most here are more 'extreme' than Swiftech product offerings

pH
Willie sent me a prototype which I have not yet tested, but it has some problems
Willie and I were unable to agree on design 'rights', so I am still looking for a mfgr to make one for Swiftech the right way
(I will not gift a design to be sold to my competitors)

[BalefireX]

Bill - Hoped you'd reply (hoped even more foolishly you might give me a hint )
I guess my question should have been worded: Anyone know numbers for Automotive heatercores that they can release?

[BillA]

after your super contribution to pH, I should help

most often the difference between the 2 is a push, higher dissipation offset by higher flow resistance
each rad design is unique, and for best performance should be carefully matched to a fan having the 'correct' characteristics (given the system design basis)

how is a DIYer going to do such ?
yet the DIY superiority myth continues . . . . .

[pHaestus]

There's little impetus for Willie to change the way he builds them now really though. I also have thought about this a bit; too rich for pH's blood to prototype radiators though.

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by unregistered

after your super contribution to pH, I should help

most often the difference between the 2 is a push, higher dissipation offset by higher flow resistance
each rad design is unique, and for best performance should be carefully matched to a fan having the 'correct' characteristics (given the system design basis)

how is a DIYer going to do such ?
yet the DIY superiority myth continues . . . . .

ooh.. impressively done - a helpful answer without giving out any numbers that could compromise your competitive position. I think you are partially right in your assessment that DIY cannot compete - without the testing and or technical experience, it is hard to do things effeciently, but DIY has the advantage of being able to use brute force - enthusiasts are often willing to sacrifice their space, ears, and pocketbooks for improved performance. I'm sure that your design wrings every ounce of performance out of a predetermined cost, space and noise envelope, but can you compete with a pair of dual heatercores and 8 120mm deltas? Either way, you've gotten the little gears upstairs turning - going to do a little more digging on static pressure.

[BillA]

brute force rules
in this arena, and most others

for most vendors offering the bigest and the cheapest will cover most inquires,
WCing efficiently is quite another task, and it pivots around the available space and 'permitted' noise
- the European approach, no ?

EDIT
the Swiftech kit offerings will be expanding in the future months, and when appropriate I will post comprehensive specs and actual C/Ws, flow rates, and temps
-> the present site kit C/W #s are in error (source die temp ~2°C high) and will be revised probably this week

[AngryAlpaca]

So Swiftech is getting a new radiator? I'd say it's about time... Not too surprising what with the radiator box that Swiftech just put out.

At 50CFM it seems that the Big Momma heater core is superior to the 120.2 by 30W... However, the 120.2 has places for 2 fans... So I should double the CFM for the 120.2 to 100 CFM or 2.8M^3/minute so the heat dissipated is, in fact, about 320W.

Is he asking for data from you? Or just a link?

Anyway, the double heater core is about 1.6... times the size of the singe radiator so it'd be about 420W with two equal fans, I think. This is with fans that offer 50CFM at 0.05" H2O or 12 Pascals, or a weak 120 in other words (about 30-35DBa)

[arterius]

I am running two single heatercores (7x7 1/4") with two large 8" rotor fans.They are reasonable quiet and push a lot of air at 10,8v .I think they move between 50 and 100 cfm and also have an enormous pressure compaired to standard axial fans.Do you think these do a good job or should I use something else? I picked them because of Bill's article where he compaired a lot of radiators and saw better performance with fans that could produce more pressure. Here are the specs of the fans.

pdf doc

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by unregistered

...WCing efficiently is quite another task, and it pivots around the available space and 'permitted' noise
- the European approach, no ?

EDIT
the Swiftech kit offerings will be expanding in the future months, and when appropriate I will post comprehensive specs and actual C/Ws, flow rates, and temps
-> the present site kit C/W #s are in error (source die temp ~2°C high) and will be revised probably this week

There you go teasing me again so Swiftech is working on some new kits...

[Razor6]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Thermochill.

Heater core style radiators (radiators in general, I think) cost a LOT to make small quantities, as one must set up solder machine or what not. The tooling is usually a one time, very high cost thing, so that's the main cost for small quantities of these radiators. If you're making 100,000, let's say, like a car company, the tooling cost is relatively small per item, and the raw materials and actual work probably doesn't take long. I think. This is all inferred from what I've seen and heard and sounds about right.

I forgot about Thermochill, they don't seem to be near as widespread as HWlabs products, they're more expensive too.

When I mentioned new competition putting out much cheaper radiators I wasn't thinking of small quantities. I doubt HWlabs has made or ordered a small ammount, probably many thousands.

Originally Posted by pHaestus

the market is limited(on THIS forum anyway) for $60-100 radiators when the Fedco heatercores are so cheap. I talked briefly with HWLabs about making a single pass Black Ice 2 Pro but honestly no one here would buy one and so it's hard to justify...

But if we could get something like a BIX2 for only twice the price of a heatercore, say around $40, the market here would expand.

[firtol88]

Originally Posted by Razor6

...But if we could get something like a BIX2 for only twice the price of a heatercore, say around $40, the market here would expand.

Sure would

[BillA]

so you will pay $20 for bling bling
or are you thinking the BIX2 performs better ?

[Razor6]

Originally Posted by unregistered

so you will pay $20 for bling bling
or are you thinking the BIX2 performs better ?

No $20 for it being perfectly sized for 2 120mm fans and not needing to cut and solder on some barbs, the "bling" paint job is a plus though.

[BillA]

and you would estimate the market at ? (in thousands/yr)
- I would observe that the BIX2 is only comparable to a hc, there are other more cost-effective solutions

you guys have been 'sold' on the wrong product

[firtol88]

Don't care much for bling, Don't care much for full towers, Don't care much for the loss of drive bays, Don't care much for...

Remember I'm the one who wants his cake and would like to eat it too... I want exceptional performance and a small neat easily installed package. One reason I'm so interested in some of the noise I have heard comming from your direction.

I'm also partially full of shit as I have always used heater cores, but I really want to find a smaller more graceful option.

The BIX is not really "it" but it's a start, hell I know you know what "it" is just get someone to produce "it".

[BillA]

anyone want to loan me a BIX2 for testing ? (a week)
- in exchange I'll post the data ??

[BalefireX]

Originally Posted by unregistered

so you will pay $20 for bling bling
or are you thinking the BIX2 performs better ?

Oh come now Bill - not even Swiftech can compete with the price/performance ratio on a $16 heatercore... I assume that what you plan on selling will be convenience, fit, and yes, bling.


Bling Bling, baby.

[AngryAlpaca]

and you would estimate the market at ? (in thousands/yr)
- I would observe that the BIX2 is only comparable to a hc, there are other more cost-effective solutions

you guys have been 'sold' on the wrong product

I'm terribly confused by the implications of some of your comments, so I think I'll just stick with your testing...

I think a $40 BIX II would sell fairly well. I don't have any actual numbers but I think it would be just a little bit worse than that 120mm of Dtek's. It has the correct barbs, a shroud, and heater core performance. The large size will be a turn off for many, though.

I think, as 80mm radiators have shown, that performance and price are not the top priorities of many watercoolers. These radiators make very little sense to me, as most people do not make $100 per hour (estimated 15 minutes of work to get a heater core ready) and want poor performance. However, they are just really easy and with a good block (and a Delta 38) will beat good air or get close.

[pHaestus]

Is the heatercore always the proper thing to use though? Bill has tried to point people to the BeCooling 5x10 oil cooler with turbulators on the inside before instead of heatercores for quiet cooling. Might be possible to get something like that in a more "wc friendly" package.

[AngryAlpaca]

It's about the same, a little worse, but much larger... Where are the specs other than the heat dissipation? They'd be a lot easier to cut down to size than a heater core, would they not? I'll have to look into these... I'm suddenly very interested...