Reversing Fan Direction

JSimmons · 05-13-2003, 05:54 PM

I have a Pabst 120mm fan. I want to reverse the direction the fan blades spin without turning the fan around.

The fan has two wires going to a molex connector. If I were to swap the position of the two wires, would the fan turn in the opposite direction? Would it hurt anything?

bigben2k · 05-13-2003, 06:01 PM

To quote decodeddiesel:

Quote:

Won't work on a DC Ball Bearing fan.

link

JSimmons · 05-13-2003, 06:16 PM

Carp.

ezlid · 05-13-2003, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigben2k
To quote decodeddiesel:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Won't work on a DC Ball Bearing fan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

link

Why? One way ball bearings?
Just have to ask because I don't think bearings have a thing to do with it. Could be wrong.

TallTxnMo · 05-16-2003, 01:53 PM

I beg to differ. Reversing the polarity on a DC motor will change the rotation. Changing it on an A/C motor has no effect. Better check your electronics again on that one.

satanicoo · 05-16-2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TallTxnMo
I beg to differ. Reversing the polarity on a DC motor will change the rotation. Changing it on an A/C motor has no effect. Better check your electronics again on that one.

fan DC motors are diferent. when you conect them in reverse polarity, they wont spin.

hara · 05-16-2003, 02:42 PM

And tried it on sleeve bearing fans also, won't work.

pelle76 · 05-16-2003, 03:07 PM

And also. The fanblades are not built to move air the other way so even if you managed to get the engine spinning the other way (wich I doubt) the fan would probably not perform as well as before and maybe also make a lot more noice.

TallTxnMo · 05-16-2003, 03:27 PM

Well, I have accidentally connected a DC fan with reverse polarity and it did turn. I do agree that the fan blades aren't designed to work in that direction, so effeciency is very lacking. It would just be easier to remove the fan and turn it around.

satanicoo · 05-16-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TallTxnMo
Well, I have accidentally connected a DC fan with reverse polarity and it did turn. I do agree that the fan blades aren't designed to work in that direction, so effeciency is very lacking. It would just be easier to remove the fan and turn it around.

funny, just did the same to 3 80mm, 1 60mm and 4 40mm and none has spinned :shrug:

pelle76 · 05-16-2003, 05:08 PM

Some DC-engines spin the both ways...

TallTxnMo · 05-23-2003, 05:58 PM

satanicoo

Just tried it on 4 other of my fans and they didn't turn either. Guess it was just the one fan. Unfortunatly, I can read the label to see who made it. Guess it was just a quirk. I stand corrected!!!!

satanicoo · 05-23-2003, 06:02 PM

hey happens to everyone.
you should check my first post, about building my own watercooled system...

i only said BS lol

as a mater of fact i STILL only say BS

Can O' Beans · 06-10-2003, 03:38 AM

It completely depends on the fan. Some fans are nothing but a simple DC motor circuit. Other fans have a bit more circutry under there, like diodes & transistors - these would prevent a reversed polarity from working.

All my Adda fans work just fine reversed, but it's almost pointless to do so. Reversing polarity would cause opposite fan rotation, and less air flow. You could just flip the fan around for easier & better results.

JSimmons · 06-10-2003, 06:30 AM

Well, it's no longer an issue. The fan is installed in the correct direction.

SparkedFire · 06-10-2003, 07:21 AM

what if the fans had a diode built in it to make sure it spins in one direction? I have noticed a small circuit on the fan. if so could it be bypassed?

satanicoo · 06-10-2003, 05:45 PM

the fans have a circuit to control its 'movement'. dunno if this is the correct word for it.
DC computer fans use brushless motors that can last for long, but use this circuit to make then spin.

And those adda fans surely arent made to use with PC's.

jafb2000 · 06-18-2003, 11:05 AM

DC Axial fans, especially PAPST, will not work in reverse polarity:
o They are reverse polarity protected
o DC fans work by a control circuit
---- fan start circuit
---- overheating/locked-rotor/stall detection & shutdown
---- fan speed maintenance since it is a DC not AC fan

Eg, if you stop some fans, they will stay stopped for about
1sec as the circuit has detected the stop, then auto-restart.
Larger industrial fans use thermal systems instead.

There is no way to reverse this operation, since the blades
are non-reversible and the voltage certainly is.

o Fan blades are also tailored to work in one direction
---- leading edge design
---- trailing edge design - usually feather-thin
---- shape & profile of the blades
-------- eg, Tunnel Vortex (Panaflo) vs Tangential airflow (PAPST)

Q: Why can't you simply reverse the fan?

--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan (Ebay)
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy...ry/panaflo.htm (Direct Prices)

sevisehda · 06-26-2003, 10:13 PM

I have apart right now and I can garuntee it will not run in reverse. The first thing in the curcuit is a diode.

If your wondering why its apart it because I'm trying to figure out how maintain a 12v signal on the RPM line because MBM5 shows 0 rpm once i get below a certain voltage when a turn my fans down through my rheobus. So if you knwo how to mod the fan tell me. Thanks.

SparkedFire · 06-26-2003, 10:20 PM

try to bypass the diode. does it spin in either direction?

sevisehda · 06-27-2003, 06:23 AM

I've disected a few dozen fans in my day I can say say each one has had some electronics inside of it. These fans are not just a motor and blades. Electronics do not like having ground being vdd and vdd being ground. I wouldn't risk doing it let alone plugging the rpom sensor into anything.

SparkedFire · 06-27-2003, 08:25 AM

hook it up to a 12v transformer from a scanner or something. thats how i usually play and test out circuits for my comp. i'd try this out (bypassing the diode) put i dont have a fan to salvage.

Lmandrake · 06-27-2003, 11:25 AM

A brushless fan will not spin in the opposite direction if you reverse polarity. If you bypass the diode, you will likely just fry it.

I have yet to see a DC operated computer grade fan that is not a brushless design. These fans basically depend on four components to spin - 1.) A hall effect sensor 2.) a ring magnet glued to the inside of the hub, 3.) Two coils (electromagnets) and 4.) Two switching transistors.

The ring magnet is just a flexible strip magnet glued inside. There are two coils on a circuit board inside the hub. When current is passed through one coil and the other is switched off, the magnetic field created by the coil attracts one pole of the ring magnet and fan hub starts to rotate. Once the fan starts to move, the hall effect sensor - which is basically a magnet operated switch - turns one coil on and the other off (through the switching transistors) and continues to alternate turning one coil on and the other off as one pole of the magnet passes by.

Removing the diode and reversing polarity won't work because the hall sensor and the transistors can only operate when the polarity is correct.

Brush motors all eventually suffer performance problems as brushes wear out, get dirty, etc. Plus dirty brushes create very "noisy" arcs.

The brushless fan is a very elegant little design that accomplishes the same thing as a brush motor with a minimum of moving parts and much more reliability.

bigben2k · 06-27-2003, 12:42 PM

Didn't anyone pickup on the purpose of the arrow, on the fan's frame?

(where applicable)

sevisehda · 06-27-2003, 05:08 PM

OK, since I now have 3 fans apart and scattered across my desk I've come up with an idea. PWM and RPM Sensing.

Heres the idea.

This circuit I'm looking at is from the BLORBs fan but it should be similar in most fans. The 12V line enters the fan, its split between the HES(Hall Effect Switch) and 2 windings. Now If I cut the trace between the HES and windings I can run 12V to the HES. Now will I be able to solder on a new lead to the windings and send whatever voltage/pwm signal to the windings and still get an RPM signal.

Forgive me if this is totally crazy, I'm not a big electronics Guru.

05-13-2003, 05:54 PM	#1
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Reversing Fan Direction I have a Pabst 120mm fan. I want to reverse the direction the fan blades spin without turning the fan around. The fan has two wires going to a molex connector. If I were to swap the position of the two wires, would the fan turn in the opposite direction? Would it hurt anything? __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-13-2003, 06:16 PM	#3
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Carp. __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

05-16-2003, 02:42 PM	#7
hara Cooling Savant Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malta, Mediterranean Posts: 662	And tried it on sleeve bearing fans also, won't work. __________________ - Every great HD crash day is the day before back-up day. - My Past System - "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Milton, Paradise Lost. - FMZ

06-10-2003, 06:30 AM	#15
JSimmons Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 4-sided room with an exit going east, and an exit going south Posts: 392	Well, it's no longer an issue. The fan is installed in the correct direction. __________________ My Watercooling Stuff

06-10-2003, 07:21 AM	#16
SparkedFire Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Matrix Posts: 114	what if the fans had a diode built in it to make sure it spins in one direction? I have noticed a small circuit on the fan. if so could it be bypassed? __________________ If you smell something odd coming from your puter, panic and run crazy. Shut her down and grab a towel. As to watercooling going mainstream: We are truely dedicated to it, we know everything, and we have perfected it.

05-16-2003, 01:53 PM	#5
TallTxnMo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 35	I beg to differ. Reversing the polarity on a DC motor will change the rotation. Changing it on an A/C motor has no effect. Better check your electronics again on that one.

05-16-2003, 03:07 PM	#8
pelle76 Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Sweden, Skovde Posts: 101	And also. The fanblades are not built to move air the other way so even if you managed to get the engine spinning the other way (wich I doubt) the fan would probably not perform as well as before and maybe also make a lot more noice.

05-16-2003, 03:27 PM	#9
TallTxnMo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 35	Well, I have accidentally connected a DC fan with reverse polarity and it did turn. I do agree that the fan blades aren't designed to work in that direction, so effeciency is very lacking. It would just be easier to remove the fan and turn it around.

05-16-2003, 05:08 PM	#11
pelle76 Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Sweden, Skovde Posts: 101	Some DC-engines spin the both ways...

05-23-2003, 05:58 PM	#12
TallTxnMo Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 35	satanicoo Just tried it on 4 other of my fans and they didn't turn either. Guess it was just the one fan. Unfortunatly, I can read the label to see who made it. Guess it was just a quirk. I stand corrected!!!!

05-23-2003, 06:02 PM	#13
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	hey happens to everyone. you should check my first post, about building my own watercooled system... i only said BS lol as a mater of fact i STILL only say BS

06-10-2003, 03:38 AM	#14
Can O' Beans Cooling Savant Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Pa - USA Posts: 264	It completely depends on the fan. Some fans are nothing but a simple DC motor circuit. Other fans have a bit more circutry under there, like diodes & transistors - these would prevent a reversed polarity from working. All my Adda fans work just fine reversed, but it's almost pointless to do so. Reversing polarity would cause opposite fan rotation, and less air flow. You could just flip the fan around for easier & better results.

06-10-2003, 05:45 PM	#17
satanicoo Cooling Savant Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: portugal Posts: 635	the fans have a circuit to control its 'movement'. dunno if this is the correct word for it. DC computer fans use brushless motors that can last for long, but use this circuit to make then spin. And those adda fans surely arent made to use with PC's. Last edited by satanicoo; 06-10-2003 at 07:56 PM.

06-18-2003, 11:05 AM	#18
jafb2000 Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cheshire, UK Posts: 18	DC Axial fans, especially PAPST, will not work in reverse polarity: o They are reverse polarity protected o DC fans work by a control circuit ---- fan start circuit ---- overheating/locked-rotor/stall detection & shutdown ---- fan speed maintenance since it is a DC not AC fan Eg, if you stop some fans, they will stay stopped for about 1sec as the circuit has detected the stop, then auto-restart. Larger industrial fans use thermal systems instead. There is no way to reverse this operation, since the blades are non-reversible and the voltage certainly is. o Fan blades are also tailored to work in one direction ---- leading edge design ---- trailing edge design - usually feather-thin ---- shape & profile of the blades -------- eg, Tunnel Vortex (Panaflo) vs Tangential airflow (PAPST) Q: Why can't you simply reverse the fan? -- Dorothy Bradbury www.stores.ebay.co.uk/panaflofan (Ebay) http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy...ry/panaflo.htm (Direct Prices)

06-26-2003, 10:13 PM	#19
sevisehda Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: NY Posts: 234	I have apart right now and I can garuntee it will not run in reverse. The first thing in the curcuit is a diode. If your wondering why its apart it because I'm trying to figure out how maintain a 12v signal on the RPM line because MBM5 shows 0 rpm once i get below a certain voltage when a turn my fans down through my rheobus. So if you knwo how to mod the fan tell me. Thanks.

06-26-2003, 10:20 PM	#20
SparkedFire Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Matrix Posts: 114	try to bypass the diode. does it spin in either direction? __________________ If you smell something odd coming from your puter, panic and run crazy. Shut her down and grab a towel. As to watercooling going mainstream: We are truely dedicated to it, we know everything, and we have perfected it.

06-27-2003, 06:23 AM	#21
sevisehda Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: NY Posts: 234	I've disected a few dozen fans in my day I can say say each one has had some electronics inside of it. These fans are not just a motor and blades. Electronics do not like having ground being vdd and vdd being ground. I wouldn't risk doing it let alone plugging the rpom sensor into anything.

06-27-2003, 08:25 AM	#22
SparkedFire Cooling Savant Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The Matrix Posts: 114	hook it up to a 12v transformer from a scanner or something. thats how i usually play and test out circuits for my comp. i'd try this out (bypassing the diode) put i dont have a fan to salvage. __________________ If you smell something odd coming from your puter, panic and run crazy. Shut her down and grab a towel. As to watercooling going mainstream: We are truely dedicated to it, we know everything, and we have perfected it.

06-27-2003, 11:25 AM	#23
Lmandrake Cooling Neophyte Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: D.C. Posts: 26	A brushless fan will not spin in the opposite direction if you reverse polarity. If you bypass the diode, you will likely just fry it. I have yet to see a DC operated computer grade fan that is not a brushless design. These fans basically depend on four components to spin - 1.) A hall effect sensor 2.) a ring magnet glued to the inside of the hub, 3.) Two coils (electromagnets) and 4.) Two switching transistors. The ring magnet is just a flexible strip magnet glued inside. There are two coils on a circuit board inside the hub. When current is passed through one coil and the other is switched off, the magnetic field created by the coil attracts one pole of the ring magnet and fan hub starts to rotate. Once the fan starts to move, the hall effect sensor - which is basically a magnet operated switch - turns one coil on and the other off (through the switching transistors) and continues to alternate turning one coil on and the other off as one pole of the magnet passes by. Removing the diode and reversing polarity won't work because the hall sensor and the transistors can only operate when the polarity is correct. Brush motors all eventually suffer performance problems as brushes wear out, get dirty, etc. Plus dirty brushes create very "noisy" arcs. The brushless fan is a very elegant little design that accomplishes the same thing as a brush motor with a minimum of moving parts and much more reliability. __________________ The technology is within the reach of even the smallest nuclear power.

06-27-2003, 12:42 PM	#24
bigben2k Responsible for 2% of all the posts here. Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas, U.S.A. Posts: 8,302	Didn't anyone pickup on the purpose of the arrow, on the fan's frame? (where applicable) __________________ WBTA (Water Block Testing Alliance) Nordic Hardware WC 101

06-27-2003, 05:08 PM	#25
sevisehda Cooling Savant Join Date: May 2003 Location: NY Posts: 234	OK, since I now have 3 fans apart and scattered across my desk I've come up with an idea. PWM and RPM Sensing. Heres the idea. This circuit I'm looking at is from the BLORBs fan but it should be similar in most fans. The 12V line enters the fan, its split between the HES(Hall Effect Switch) and 2 windings. Now If I cut the trace between the HES and windings I can run 12V to the HES. Now will I be able to solder on a new lead to the windings and send whatever voltage/pwm signal to the windings and still get an RPM signal. Forgive me if this is totally crazy, I'm not a big electronics Guru.

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