BIX II how much better than BI Pro II?

[bent]

a Black Ice Pro II is only about 20 mm thinner than Black Ice eXtreme II in size, yet it's price is $3x cheaper.
Is it worth to pay $3x more to get a BIX II? how much is it better than Black Ice Pro II?

[Demonfire]

The diffrences between the bix and bip are not skin deep.

The Bix is designed diffrently. Its heat transfer is substantially better.

Go with the BIX or a heatercore

[AngryAlpaca]

According to the company that makes them, the BIX is twice as good. Save yourself some money and get a heater core.

[bent]

Heater core from Danger Den?

[BillA]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

According to the company that makes them, the BIX is twice as good. . . . .

twice as good ?
did you review their data ?
why don't you ask for an explanation ?
or ask a vendor who sells both ?
j/k, j/k
we both know that WCers will buy on hype, no data needed

I do have data, and in 4 wks or so it will be 'published' as we describe new products - but NOT the BIX
I wonder why ?

[Demonfire]

Originally Posted by bent

Heater core from Danger Den?

http://www.dangerden.com/mall/Radiators/heatercore.asp

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by unregistered

twice as good ?
did you review their data ?
why don't you ask for an explanation ?
or ask a vendor who sells both ?
j/k, j/k
we both know that WCers will buy on hype, no data needed

I do have data, and in 4 wks or so it will be 'published' as we describe new products - but NOT the BIX
I wonder why ?

i believe he means that HL claim the BIX is "twice as good" as a BIP...(presumably based on their usual 40C temp difference figures...)

[BillA]

Originally Posted by pauldenton

i believe he means that HL claim the BIX is "twice as good" as a BIP...(presumably based on their usual 40C temp difference figures...)

which is a totally bogus claim
the second row of tubes has exactly the same efficiency as the front row ?

they should patent such a rad, for it does not exist

[pHaestus]

I've heard 20-30% improvement for second row of tubes is that about right Bill?

[8-Ball]

I presume the reasons for this are that the flow rate would be greatly reduced through each set of tubes? Essentially two black ice pro II in parallel with common tanks, yes? So because of the lower flow rates, the convective heat transfer coefficient would be reduced, yes?

Equally, it would be more restrictive for airflow, so the all important airflow would be reduced.

Does that sound like a reasonable explanation.

8-ball

[BillA]

and that the air to the second row is now warmer
OFFSET second rows are generally assumed to have 70% efficiency as compared to the first row

- but the BI rads are all in a row, far worse as the 2ed tube leading edge is now shrouded

another bs claim, parroted by ignorant vendors
grrr, getting hot and its not yet 8Am

[8-Ball]

Yeah forgot about the warmer air.

Oh well, got the hard parts and missed the obvious point.

Never mind.

8-ball

[pauldenton]

Originally Posted by unregistered

which is a totally bogus claim
the second row of tubes has exactly the same efficiency as the front row ?

they should patent such a rad, for it does not exist

they actually claim about 220% of the performance... so it's even more bogus (if that's the only difference..)

their claim for a BIM and Swiftech's for it's version are very close i believe (once you adjust for the 40C... )

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by bent

Is it worth to pay $3x more to get a BIX II??

Actually, if you're watercooling for silence, the thinner one is preferable (you need less fan pressure, which means less fan noise). Don't expect great cooling though, erm, well, better than BlackIce Pro (same thickness but built for a single 120mm fan).
It's all a matter of what you're optimizing for...

[AngryAlpaca]

Actually, if you're watercooling for silence, the thinner one is preferable (you need less fan pressure, which means less fan noise). Don't expect great cooling though, erm, well, better than BlackIce Pro (same thickness but built for a single 120mm fan).
It's all a matter of what you're optimizing for...

Ugh. BS! The BIP is thinner than the BIX. Nothing is "built" for a single fan. It's a cheap, shoddy design. You'll get better performance out of a BIX II with a pair of silent fans than out of a BIP II with loud fans.

Actually their BIM is about right. 3W more at a 15C thing, but that's with a rough calculation.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Ugh. BS!.

I suspect we have a "failure to communicate". My fault, probably. Would be nice if you didn't immediately call it "BS", but that's just your "style", I guess.

The BIP is thinner than the BIX.

Yes, the BIP is thinner (am I saying otherwise? apologies if I am, was unintended). IMHO it's just this "thinness", not any special design that makes it present less air resistance. There's also a thick and a thin BI II - I may have the model names mixed up. I'm just saying that the larger radiator of the same thickness is going to cool a bit better. In theory you could drop your fan speed even more to get this cooling for the same noise level. In practice, I've been unable to get an axial fan to start reliably when undervolted to this level, so you're looking at about a 3dB increase - unless you want to leave the second fan on a switch or something.

Nothing is "built" for a single fan.

Well... OK - although I think of the BIP as "one fan" and BI II as "two fan". Make it "two fan" and "four fan" if that's what you're thinking of - not that push/pull makes any sense for silent cooling.

It's a cheap, shoddy design.

They don't seem that badly made - just way too expensive for what they are. My opinion, of course. They certainly don't have the economies of scale that heatercores do. They also don't have the thickness and sub-fin corrugations of heater cores, which, for silent cooling is good design, not bad.

You'll get better performance out of a BIX II with a pair of silent fans than out of a BIP II with loud fans.

Hmmm silent - I think we differ on what is "silent". I've tried undervolted-to-silence (~15dB or lower for me) fans on both BIP and BIX rads - and get approximately the same cooling (different systems, but same case model, radiator placement, fan model, motherboard, CPU model, but using CPU diode for hints about CPU temp so only approximately the same - oh and only paying attention to room air / CPU diode delta).

Actually their BIM is about right.

I've never used one of these - never even seen one "in the flesh".
And rereading my post - was it the word "preferable"? I should have been clearer - would "preferable in that it's the same cooling at silent fan levels for lower cost" have worked better? It's what I meant - I jump between here and the silent PC review and sometimes forget that the two audiences are on really different wavelengths as regards "quiet" and "silent". (on the other hand, I've somewhat given up on the watercooling forum over there). Oh, and in considering 15dB to be "silent", I'm at the "loud" end of the spectrum over there (sort of like being a US liberal and moving to Australia, I guess ).

In the future I would appreciate a PM or EM if you think something I've posted is "BS". I really try to not do that and would like a chance to re-write something that I haven't done properly - particularly if the issue is not something technical (so other readers might get benefit of the discussion) but simply my writing skills.

[bobkoure]

I've had good luck using a free spell checker called IE Spell. It definitely beats exporting the text of a post out to a word processor just so I can check for typos.

[AngryAlpaca]

better than BlackIce Pro (same thickness but built for a single 120mm fan).

I'll be back with more later.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

Quoting me: better than BlackIce Pro (same thickness but built for a single 120mm fan).
I'll be back with more later.

More what? More incomplete quotes?
I'm referring to two radiators of the same construction and thickness.
one has about 22 square inches of frontal area, the other has about 45 square inches frontal area. I've said the larger one can shed more heat. What are you going on about? Is this wrong? Would you like to call it BS? You seem to want to do this publicly, so go ahead.

Originally Posted by AngryAlpaca

You'll get better performance out of a BIX II with a pair of silent fans than out of a BIP II with loud fans.

OK - define "silent fans". Tell me the exact fan and voltage you are talking about. For extra credit, estimate the pressure and CFM (before radiator air resistance - just use the curves, if you're not "off the scale" on the bottom.
Now tell me what sort of "performance" you're getting from both those radiators at that pressure/CFM. Are you pushing or pulling? Other factors?
If your definition of "silent" was over ~15dB - why? My hearing is damaged from many years of motorcycles, guns, and airplanes - and I can still hear 15dB no problem - and "if ya can hear it, it ain't silent".

If you don't mind me asking - have you ever built any silent systems?

[AngryAlpaca]

IMHO it's just this "thinness", not any special design that makes it present less air resistance.

Your opinion is probably wrong. There was a major design change between the two, so you can't just say that the "thinness" is all that changes the resistance.

There's also a thick and a thin BI II - I may have the model names mixed up.

Yeah, they've got entirely different designs.

Well... OK - although I think of the BIP as "one fan" and BI II as "two fan". Make it "two fan" and "four fan" if that's what you're thinking of - not that push/pull makes any sense for silent cooling.

Now you're talking in terms of the BIP and BIP II, rather than in terms of BIX II and BIP II?

They don't seem that badly made - just way too expensive for what they are. My opinion, of course. They certainly don't have the economies of scale that heatercores do. They also don't have the thickness and sub-fin corrugations of heater cores, which, for silent cooling is good design, not bad.

I never said anything about construction.

Hmmm silent - I think we differ on what is "silent". I've tried undervolted-to-silence (~15dB or lower for me) fans on both BIP and BIX rads - and get approximately the same cooling (different systems, but same case model, radiator placement, fan model, motherboard, CPU model, but using CPU diode for hints about CPU temp so only approximately the same - oh and only paying attention to room air / CPU diode delta).

My mistake, not silent, quiet.

I've never used one of these - never even seen one "in the flesh".
And rereading my post - was it the word "preferable"? I should have been clearer - would "preferable in that it's the same cooling at silent fan levels for lower cost" have worked better?

What does the BIM have to do with this? I was confirming paul's statement. It's 103W at 15C difference. It's not the same cooling at any level. It's the same thing as a heater core versus a BIX. A heater core is more restrictive to the air, but it's better built, so it does much better with less air.

More what? More incomplete quotes?
I'm referring to two radiators of the same construction and thickness.
one has about 22 square inches of frontal area, the other has about 45 square inches frontal area. I've said the larger one can shed more heat. What are you going on about? Is this wrong? Would you like to call it BS? You seem to want to do this publicly, so go ahead.

Now we're talking about an entirely different thing!

[pHaestus]

There are 3 120mm sized Black Ice radiators:

Black Ice (prime): 4 pass, 3/8" OD barbs, tested by BillA; VERY restrictive
Black Ice Pro: 2 pass, 1/2" OD barbs, one row of parallel tubes for water flow
Black Ice Extreme: 2 pass, 1/2" OD barbs, 2 rows of tubes.

As far as fin density I've never held them up side by side but I am guessing they are probably the same.

Bob's comments dont seem unreasonable to me; for quiet wcing with low CFM fans I would also use a Black Ice Pro or better yet a Pro2 and not their Xtreme brethren.

[bobkoure]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Bob's comments dont seem unreasonable

I'm not trying to be unreasonable.
I was surprised when I discovered that the cheaper radiator did as well / better than the more expensive one.
I had thought that if something was surprising / unusual / contrary to expectations I'd ought to mention it.
I'm hesitant to report temps as they were diode temps and weren't the same CPU (although were same model case, motherboard, fan) so the relation could easily be the reverse of what I saw - but probably not so far in reverse that it'd make sense to buy the more expensive radiator. Oh - and I possibly arranged case-wiring differently (no notes and can't remember) which also can have a big effect.

I'm certainly guilty of not being able to keep the BlackIce model names straight. I have to look at web pictures to re-figure-out which is which every time I order one (not that often, anyway).
I'm also guilty of not being really clear about what I mean by silent.
Finally, I am guilty of beginning to "respond in kind" to Angry Alpaca (If he can question me, call my posts BS, I can do the same - stopped short of the BS part).
I apologize for these lapses.

However... I'm also a bit put off by the assumption that I'm BSing. I guess I'm just not used to it as this is not typical in my field. I don't even get why someone should BS in the first place. I feel like, as far as cooling goes, you folks all know lots more than I do. I had thought that to the extent that some of the stuff I do is "off the charts to the bottom" I might have the occasional bit to contribute, and was, indeed, trying to contribute, not pollute.

I do have questions for AA, but am hesitant to ask them here as it may seem like continuing an argument.

[BillA]

do not take him so seriously

thin and big is best for silence, an ignored theme

[8-Ball]

Out of curiosity, how do the thermochill rads compare to the black ice range in terms of construction, restriction to airflow etc.

8-ball

[BillA]

similar rads, built as pricing suggests