Anyone still interested in .......

[Blackeagle]

I'm wondering if anyone is still interested in a comparisson of a high and low flow systems.

I'm interested in seeing the tests go forward.

So how's about we have a exchange of ideas on what would make up a fine high flow rig?

What would you like to see in each of the following areas?

Pumps

Rads

Fans

CPU block

GPU block

So how's about it guys

[Chew_Toy]

Well for a typical American high-flo system it wont take a lot of discusion that I can see.
For CPU block it would be between TDX/RBX w #4 or#5 plate, Swiftech MCW6000 series, or the D-Tek WW.
For the GPU would be between the Maze, swiftech, or fusion.
For the pump I would say nowdays the MCP650/D4 will prob be about the most popular as long as the people can afford them.
For Rads would most likely be a dbl heatercore with shroud.
For fans I personally like the Sanyo Denki 120x38s, but the panaflos and deltas also would be quite popular.

[AngryAlpaca]

Yeah he's got it. #5 plate on the RBX (is this considered cheating? Are we supposed to be optimizing or regularizing?) Fusion, and everything else the same.

[pHaestus]

Yes I'm still very interested in doing the testing

[Etacovda]

Bah, DEFINED GOALS BEFORE PARTS SELECTION.

I don't know how many times in these threads (theres been craploads of threads dedicated to this recently) ive seen bill say this, but its bloody true.

High flow vs low flow, to ME, means the best of both offerings. I dont think a heatercore (a US one, at least) is going to be the best represenation of whats possible with high flow; I'm "high flow 1/2inch" but i DONT use a 2 inch thick heatercore...

Is this going to be 'high flow vs low flow'? or 'US vs German' again? Or even "US vs German vs Pasifica"?

This is going NOWHERE fast like the other threads unless we decide the above question, I think... It'll just fall into obscurity like the other threads.

FWIW, I dont see an alphacool set as 'low flow' when its running 700lph.

[pHaestus]

Then that falls upon me to set up the competition doesn't it?

[Etacovda]

Depends on how much people are going to read into it i guess, and what fan boys come from what camp to set it up. Im for just testing the NexXxos block; can it all be figured out from there? or is it too tricky.

At the end of the day, which is it going to be?
The best of high flow vs the best of low flow? (whats low flow? does a 700lph pump with 1.5m of head constitute low flow?)

Or 'what most X are using vs why Y are using vs what Z are using?'
Id love to see the US vs German vs Aussie testing, for that case...

Its just too open at the moment, and someones bound to jump down someone elses throat for the 1/2 tubing sales

[Chew_Toy]

The thing I see come from testing multiple kits and seperate block testing is that it will also show how good the different rads and pumps perform setup in a case. Like is a BIXII equal to a standard dbl heater core given different fan setups.
Like you stated just testing the blocks most can be figured from there and the reverse would be true also which would show through the testing.

Personally I use a RBX with the #5 plate on a bare core 2.4c along with a Maze4 GPUblock and a Z-cipset block. With my MCP600 I doubt I am getting a flo of 1 gph which would not be considered hi-flo even tho I use 1/2"ID tygon.

I think these kit tests would allow everyone more info on what would work best for them with what they want to do. Far more than any of what tests done one individual WBs or pumps we have seen in the past.
I dont know if I have ever seen any really accurate tests done to compare complete setups anywhere befor

What I suggested was what I consider a typical American stye performance setup not a best of the best type. From what I have seen what Cathar stated for the OZs would prob perform better mainly because of the rad, and I think that if it did it would prob influence what the future rads for American setups would include.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

Bah, DEFINED GOALS BEFORE PARTS SELECTION.

As Bill posted over at Wizd's site, " don't see anyone sparkplugging it at the moment at Pro Cooling - the idea of consensus there is laughable, pardon my saying so."


The goal is to compare to differantly designed cooling rigs. One that values performance above almost all else, and will tolerate a reasonable level of noise to get it, as Cathar and others put it well, "Brute force". The other wants good cooling, as good or better than the highest end air coolers, but MUST have low noise, or even better.....& should look good while doing it.

A major point is to decide on internal or exteranl set ups. I very much favor the external. This is very much main stream, look at the number of them now sold by such as Corsair, Exos, ThermalTake ect. ect...... And a external set up allows more flexability in pump and rad to use.

Second important goal to difine IMO, is the amount of noise this performance rig can have, to still be considered a reasonablly main stream set up. 35dba, 40....ect. That will set limits on both pump & fan selection to consider.

I'd favor a fairly high noise level. 35-40dba, but once again to reach a consensus we need a good number of people to post THIER thoughts, without concern of attack. (So lets have the flamebait regarding "fanboys" sh!t canned first off)

PUMP I'd favor a Iwaki, it's what I have, but I can well see the reasoning for going with the Swiftech 650 or D4, more "mainstream". Works for me.

RADS Heater cores are the first thought here. The real question is which one? I sent a e-mail to Cathar, perhaps one of the thinner ones as used in Australia would be more effective. But then it sure wouldn't be a "American" rig. And if Cathar intends to send a all Australian rig to pH, then that thought is moot.

In order to keep cooling level high, with sane nosie levels, in a 2" thick core, it must be large. The 2-342 single pass would be good, but the 2-192 old Ford tilt cab truck core would be perhaps better, if one can be obtained. If others agree with the idea of such a large core (10.75" X 10.25" X 2" for finned area alone.), I'll pay for it (I would expect to get it back if it's a expensive one, which I'm thinking it will be). So far I've been unable to locate where to buy one. I also look forward to seeing what others favor here.


FANS Pressure is the thing here, as with pumps. I've not used the Sanyo fans myself, but do like the numbers they show. Also interested in seeing what others suggest here. I've Delta 130cfm 120mm X 38mm, but they are loud, most likely to loud for many. Unlike pH & Bill, I see nothing wrong, in real world use, in a reobus to control fans, I've a Sunbeam reobus so I guess the Deltas are to loud for me as well.

CPU block I'd pick the White Water here. RBX would be my second choice.

GPU block Fusion
I think the inclusion of a GPU block in the loop, as a secondary test is important. This part of the testing would be of more interest to the EU people perhaps than here, but many do use multiple blocks. I'd also want to see numbers on the two loops with just the CPU block in. (Provided this isn't more than pH is willing to do, this IS asking a lot.)

I really, REALLY do want to see this comparison test go forward. And pH, I'm real glad to see you're still interested as welll.

[Etacovda]

I'd like to see it as well.

How bout we have TWO sets from the Euro group - the standard 'german' set up, and an alphacool 1200lph set up; saves arguements, and makes pH work harder :P just what he needs!

I'd love to see that, along with a DD kit, a 'standard american' set up and a 'standard austrialian set up'. Sure, it would be 5 kits - but it would provide so much information...

[BillA]

Blackeagle
you will have recurring problems using the word 'best', because 'best' may not be understood, or known publicly, or economically practical

better is Cathar's approach: popular parts in general use
note that the purpose to these tests is to inform, not to declare a winner
so what is wrong in learning the heater cores are cheap, but not really ideal for WCing ?
(unless cost is the defining parameter) be assured that Cathar and I already know this

for the purpose of this comparison just put together a 1/2" system
I would NOT focus on noise, because a 1/2" system is presumably performance oriented, low 40s will provide a good fan selection - and as you said, speed control them
my 2¢

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by Etacovda

I'd like to see it as well.

How bout we have TWO sets from the Euro group - the standard 'german' set up, and an alphacool 1200lph set up; saves arguements, and makes pH work harder :P just what he needs!

I'd love to see that, along with a DD kit, a 'standard american' set up and a 'standard austrialian set up'. Sure, it would be 5 kits - but it would provide so much information...

The point of the GPU block is to recognize the fact the EU rigs, for the most part, have multiple blocks. That way they gain something as well, data regarding how a US type rig handles the inclusion of added blocks.

Now how about a post from you regarding the "Oz" entry in this? The rad you mentioned would be a good starting point........

You know, add something constructive, as opposed to proving Bill's point from his post at Wizd.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by unregistered

Blackeagle
you will have recurring problems using the word 'best', because 'best' may not be understood, or known publicly, or economically practical

better is Cathar's approach: popular parts in general use
note that the purpose to these tests is to inform, not to declare a winner
so what is wrong in learning the heater cores are cheap, but not really ideal for WCing ?
(unless cost is the defining parameter) be assured that Cathar and I already know this

for the purpose of this comparison just put together a 1/2" system
I would NOT focus on noise, because a 1/2" system is presumably performance oriented, low 40s will provide a good fan selection - and as you said, speed control them
my 2¢

Bill, I really did try to avoid absolutes when posting this thread, it's a attempt to get things moving.

Did slip and use the term "best" once, in regards to the thickness of the "best" heater core. It seemed to fit, but I'll edit that as you are right can be taken differantly.

I've no problem seeing the heater core shown to be less effective than other alternatives. And as you just posted, I hope to come away better informed.

[BillA]

why not run a series of polls - as Cathar did - on several forums to assess, and then select ?

[BalefireX]

Didn't realize it was a popularity contest...
You know better than most that there is a huge gulf between public opinion and reality.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by BalefireX

Didn't realize it was a popularity contest...
You know better than most that there is a huge gulf between public opinion and reality.

Well said. If we went by public opinion then we just aswell fire pH and get Liquid3D to do reviews and testing for ProCooling.

[Blackeagle]

Originally Posted by jaydee116

.... and get Liquid3D to do reviews and testing for ProCooling.

OMFG

A bit over the top on that one.......hehehe .

How about it JD, care to make some suggestions?

Edit:

Please disregard my first thought regarding a poll. I've hope we can do it without polls, consensus here, while perhaps hard to reach, should offer a better final rig.

And which other sites would you suggest posting such a poll at Bill?

[BillA]

BalefireX
now you are right back to the quest for best
yes, I know that most are uninformed (by my standards) - but this is not a 'test' of anyone's ability to pick the best part(s)

I assumed it was a 'cool off' between different types of systems
and I don't think adding an atypical $80 rad will be very enlightening

ah jd, where can you go from here ?
hunting for "best", and how will you actually know what is best before selection ?
man, train wreck ahead

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by pHaestus

Then that falls upon me to set up the competition doesn't it?

I'll put my two cents in I guess. If I were the tester here, I would get a top of the line BIX-2 for the radiator. They are popular enough in Europe and the States, I think that would be fine for the rad. For the pump, probably something like the MCP650. Swiftech sells'em here. But its a German pump to begin with, sounds fair.

That gets the pump/radiator components out of the way, and both the examples I cited above are ubiquitous in both Euro low flow and US high flow setups. Then, you would need waterblocks. Three for each school. Take your pic from the ones you already have for the high-flowers. But for the low-flowers you've got one: that Innovatek Rev 3. Probably a NexXxos and, gee something else I guess!

Then, perform you're normal testing methodology, but run ALL the blocks in both low flow and high flow situations. For each config, you would just swap the hoses and fittings on the circuit components between I don't know, 12mm for the high flowers and 8mm for the low flowers. The only other thing I would change would be the fans on the rad. The low-flowers love "quiet" vs. performance. So, the low flowers get nice, but low CFM Papst fans. The high flowers get Sunon 120x38's or something appropriately high flow and noisey.

The advantage of that approach is it gets the radiator-pump question out of the way and keeps that situation equal. All the blocks are tested in all conditions. I would laugh my ass off if a Cascade for instance got better numbers than a Innovatek XX Flow in the low flow for instance. But perhaps the opposite would be true. Also, the deltas for each block in each config can be displayed, showing how much of an improvement high flow gives for low flow, even with the German blocks.

The big drawback is to truly test it Phaestus style, you have to mount each block ten times. That would be a horrendous amount of busy-work for a six block test. Works out to 120 mounts with both configs!

[Blackeagle]

While "best" may be the wrong goal for a couple reasons, cost, general used ect.

But I'd love to hear where else to post (poll), for reasonablly good results? Based on performance.....ect.

I do really agree with what you posted regarding nosie Bill, 40dba or a bit more, with a reobus would be good. But I'd need to do more checking on fans offering high pressures at that sound range of low 40ish dba. My Deltas are in the upper 40s, 48dba if I recall right. The fans are one area I hope to learn in on this.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by unregistered

ah jd, where can you go from here ?
hunting for "best", and how will you actually know what is best before selection ?
man, train wreck ahead

Thats just it and thats why I have been quiet on this issue. I still don't know what the exact goal is here? First is was about German/Euro vs. American then it was German kits vs. USA kits now it seems it is high flow vs. low flow systems (with undefined systems?) and now there is this fan noise issue. WTF exactly are we doing? :shrug: Are we trying to come up with the best high flow and low flow system? Or just put together a popular low flow and high flow system and see what wins? If so what does that prove? Dosn't prove or disprove a non popular system will beat the popular system out so basically it proves nothing.

Seems to me it comes down to a pissing contest between German and American equipment. If not, then what?

[BillA]

just to stir it a bit,

LISTEN to what the Europeans say are their priorities . . . . . noise, not performance
so why are WE using performance as the yardstick, seems there should be several criteria applied to evaluating (and selecting ??)

that make it better jd ?

a personal comment: low noise to me is much more important than high performance

[nikhsub1]

Originally Posted by unregistered

just to stir it a bit,

LISTEN to what the Europeans say are their priorities . . . . . noise, not performance
so why are WE using performance as the yardstick, seems there should be several criteria applied to evaluating (and selecting ??)

that make it better jd ?

a personal comment: low noise to me is much more important than high performance

Then why not put two nearly identical systems together in terms of dBa, test, see which is better in terms of performance?

[BalefireX]

Well, best is a super-subjective term, and not one I'd use in this case. If we are going to test the differences between two different types of systems (low and high flow) lets pick systems with similar goals - we could go "cheap and low flow" like any of the $100 systems, we could go "low flow and nearly silent", like the Zalman Reserator, but I thought we were going "low flow, high performance" with Alphacool... therefore, lets pick a "high flow, high performance" setup, not a "high flow, high popularity" setup.

Lets be realistic in terms of cost/noise/avaliability, but making it "popular choice" seems about as fair as "Miss America" (or the Eurovision Song Contest)

[BillA]

this is not a wrangle about experimental design,
its the goal that remains elusive
I will bow out as I don't think my comments are helping bring this to the point of action

push it Blackeagle